And I would use Leclerc over M1A1 any day of the week. Might just be upto preference.
I wouldn’t really see how Leclercs could be oppressive at 12.0 but we could agree on 12.3 for all of them?
the S2 doesn’t have better turret armour at all dude? it’s identical xD
the SXXI and such added the extra armour.
What’s your stance on the 11.7 Ariete?
I would say they are fine tanks. They’re playable, but could go down.
Though I prefer that they get their accurate armor instead of going down to 11.3:
It seems you dont know the armor diagram.
S2 has slighlty increased turret armor on both front and side armor.
If Gaijin changed it or didnt implemented it then thats on them, not S2’s problem.
So is the M1A1 a 0.7 difference to the current Ariete in your opinion? (0.3 if the Ariete got usable turret cheek armour)
Yes. But it could be a 0.3 if it had its proper armor as you said.
Yes in real life of course it’s upgraded.
In the game it’s identical mate.
They have literally in gamethe same turret armour
After the turret basket change, maybe.
Before that ? Nah.
In game S2 has identical armor as the S1 tho, aside from the structural beam between the UFP and front plate
IRL no in service S1 even use the “S1” armor package. In service S1 all use the S1OP package, bringing it to S2 level of armor.
In game all leclercs (including the SXXI) use the S1 armor package (with the SXXI having the extra SXXI armor on top, when it should be SXXI on top of S2 package)
So in their current states, the M1A1 has ~12mm - ~65mm more turret armour (according to your picture w/ WAR add-on), better hull armour (UFP autoricochets and LFP is ~380mm - ~430mm), ESS, slightly better gun elevation speed, better gun depression (-10 instead of -8), slightly better top speed, better acceleration, completely protected ammo stowage, and a slightly larger first-stage.
With the slightly better armour hull and turret armour (keep in mind that the M1A1’s turret cheek armour can only really reliably stop 3BM42, whereas WAR KIT Ariete’s turret cheeks would only be able to stop 120mm DM23 / 105mm DM63), first stage, protected ammo stowage, and gun depression alone, I’d say it should be a 0.3 BR higher than the Ariete.
And then if you add the mobility, elevation speed, better sight, and ESS, I would agree with you that it’s definitely a 0.7 BR difference.
However, the Ariete gets better reverse speed, no pronounced turret ring weakspot (that can also be abused by autocannons with as little as ~70mm of penetration), no turret basket, no ammo in the turret bustle for which lol-penning rounds can detonate despite being hull-down, gets Gen 2 thermals, 4 pops of smoke grenades instead of just 3, and a slightly better round… I’d say all of that at least cancels out a 0.3 BR difference of benefits the M1A1 Abrams gets.
Either the M1A1 should go to 12.0 (along with the Type 90 and Challenger 2s) or the Ariete should just go down to 11.3.
If Gaijin implements the correct armour values on the Ariete then it would become slower (possibly as slow as the Challengers) unless the weight is kept the same, so I’m not sure if it would warrant a BR increase equal to the M1A1.
I wouldn’t mind that. Along with this I would like further decompression, to atleast 13.0.
I believe the weight would stay the same. Though it already has a similar HP/T to the base CR2.
Overall though I’d say lore accurate Ariete is still 0.3 worse than M1A1, but theyre quite close.
Just saw the video how this affect the tank. Holly cow.
This without buffs in other mentioned above areas is a literally massive, like MASSIVE nerf.
watch?v=6bJcPVCjFiI
Yup
If that’s the case then it would be pretty solid being with the other 12.0 rosters.
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I’m not sure whether or not to say it’s 11.7 or 12.0 worthy, but I’m leaning on 12.0 at this point.
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Well, it would just be a more mobile Challenger 2 with better gun handling, a much better round and much larger first stage… at the cost of not having nearly as good turret cheek armour / UFP armour and no ESS.
A good in-between of the M1A1 and Challenger 2 then.
So-much-so that I might prefer it over either of the two.
I think it would be better than the 2A4M / 2PL in most cases too.
Also, I believe all the Leclercs should be 12.3 with a better round, and have the Leopard 2PL move down to 12.0.
Then the 2A5 and 2A6 can be 12.3 without being directly superior to the 2A4M (besides thermals) / 2PL (besides thermals and dart).
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I’ve made a relatively detailed diagram of both… let me see if I can find it.
Let’s look at the turret armour and survivability in more detail:
Red = Ammo rack / crew wipe / engine + turret drive most likely to occur. (one shot / two shot kill inevitable)
Orange = Gunner + Commander out and maybe one module (other than the engine / breech) most likely to occur. (You most likely can retreat back into cover, though you will have a 10s reload)
Dark Yellow = Breech + maybe one crew member (You most likely can retreat back into cover and repair, you will still have a 5s reload)
Gold = Loader / Commander / Gunner + maybe one module (You most likely can shoot back)
Light Yellow = Module damage
Against ~570mm (pretty common penetration at around ~11.7 - 12.0):
Assuming the M1A1 is taking only ~23 rounds
Assuming the Leclerc S1 is taking only ~23 rounds too
And assuming the Leclerc SXXI is taking only ~23 rounds too
M1A1’s ammunition is also more likely to explode due to the way it is orientated compared to the Leclercs, and possibly even more compact:
So overall, I’d say the Leclerc S1’s left cheek (from the enemy’s POV) is worse than the M1A1, though it’s not that much better since commander + gunner + FCS is still very crippling, and there’s less of a chance that the Leclerc explodes (although it’s almost guaranteed that the gunner, turret ring, and autoloader gets taken out).
The SXXI’s left cheek is a lot more survivable, even able to shrug off ~570mm pen rounds.
Overall, I’d say the SXXI’s left cheek is better than the M1A1’'s, but it’s slower by a decent amount as a result.
The right cheek for the S1(the same as with the SXXI’s) is much better than the right cheek of the M1A1.
The mantlet area is much more prone to getting one-shot though.
If we look at the Abrams and Leclercs from an angle, the Leclerc’s armour still can hold up enough to only cause the gunner / commander to get knocked out, maybe the breech too. Rarely does it go through the blow-out panels though, unless you aim for the commander / gunner view ports, or the turret bustle itself (if you are able to).
The Lecercs also have Gen 2 thermals, gunner and commander on opposite sides, and no NATO Hump so it’s not just the extra turret armour that it works with.