After the turret basket change, maybe.
Before that ? Nah.
In game S2 has identical armor as the S1 tho, aside from the structural beam between the UFP and front plate
IRL no in service S1 even use the “S1” armor package. In service S1 all use the S1OP package, bringing it to S2 level of armor.
In game all leclercs (including the SXXI) use the S1 armor package (with the SXXI having the extra SXXI armor on top, when it should be SXXI on top of S2 package)
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So in their current states, the M1A1 has ~12mm - ~65mm more turret armour (according to your picture w/ WAR add-on), better hull armour (UFP autoricochets and LFP is ~380mm - ~430mm), ESS, slightly better gun elevation speed, better gun depression (-10 instead of -8), slightly better top speed, better acceleration, completely protected ammo stowage, and a slightly larger first-stage.
With the slightly better armour hull and turret armour (keep in mind that the M1A1’s turret cheek armour can only really reliably stop 3BM42, whereas WAR KIT Ariete’s turret cheeks would only be able to stop 120mm DM23 / 105mm DM63), first stage, protected ammo stowage, and gun depression alone, I’d say it should be a 0.3 BR higher than the Ariete.
And then if you add the mobility, elevation speed, better sight, and ESS, I would agree with you that it’s definitely a 0.7 BR difference.
However, the Ariete gets better reverse speed, no pronounced turret ring weakspot (that can also be abused by autocannons with as little as ~70mm of penetration), no turret basket, no ammo in the turret bustle for which lol-penning rounds can detonate despite being hull-down, gets Gen 2 thermals, 4 pops of smoke grenades instead of just 3, and a slightly better round… I’d say all of that at least cancels out a 0.3 BR difference of benefits the M1A1 Abrams gets.
Either the M1A1 should go to 12.0 (along with the Type 90 and Challenger 2s) or the Ariete should just go down to 11.3.
If Gaijin implements the correct armour values on the Ariete then it would become slower (possibly as slow as the Challengers) unless the weight is kept the same, so I’m not sure if it would warrant a BR increase equal to the M1A1.
I wouldn’t mind that. Along with this I would like further decompression, to atleast 13.0.
I believe the weight would stay the same. Though it already has a similar HP/T to the base CR2.
Overall though I’d say lore accurate Ariete is still 0.3 worse than M1A1, but theyre quite close.
Just saw the video how this affect the tank. Holly cow.
This without buffs in other mentioned above areas is a literally massive, like MASSIVE nerf.
watch?v=6bJcPVCjFiI
Yup
If that’s the case then it would be pretty solid being with the other 12.0 rosters.
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I’m not sure whether or not to say it’s 11.7 or 12.0 worthy, but I’m leaning on 12.0 at this point.
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Well, it would just be a more mobile Challenger 2 with better gun handling, a much better round and much larger first stage… at the cost of not having nearly as good turret cheek armour / UFP armour and no ESS.
A good in-between of the M1A1 and Challenger 2 then.
So-much-so that I might prefer it over either of the two.
I think it would be better than the 2A4M / 2PL in most cases too.
Also, I believe all the Leclercs should be 12.3 with a better round, and have the Leopard 2PL move down to 12.0.
Then the 2A5 and 2A6 can be 12.3 without being directly superior to the 2A4M (besides thermals) / 2PL (besides thermals and dart).
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I’ve made a relatively detailed diagram of both… let me see if I can find it.
Let’s look at the turret armour and survivability in more detail:
Red = Ammo rack / crew wipe / engine + turret drive most likely to occur. (one shot / two shot kill inevitable)
Orange = Gunner + Commander out and maybe one module (other than the engine / breech) most likely to occur. (You most likely can retreat back into cover, though you will have a 10s reload)
Dark Yellow = Breech + maybe one crew member (You most likely can retreat back into cover and repair, you will still have a 5s reload)
Gold = Loader / Commander / Gunner + maybe one module (You most likely can shoot back)
Light Yellow = Module damage
Against ~570mm (pretty common penetration at around ~11.7 - 12.0):
Assuming the M1A1 is taking only ~23 rounds
Assuming the Leclerc S1 is taking only ~23 rounds too
And assuming the Leclerc SXXI is taking only ~23 rounds too
M1A1’s ammunition is also more likely to explode due to the way it is orientated compared to the Leclercs, and possibly even more compact:
So overall, I’d say the Leclerc S1’s left cheek (from the enemy’s POV) is worse than the M1A1, though it’s not that much better since commander + gunner + FCS is still very crippling, and there’s less of a chance that the Leclerc explodes (although it’s almost guaranteed that the gunner, turret ring, and autoloader gets taken out).
The SXXI’s left cheek is a lot more survivable, even able to shrug off ~570mm pen rounds.
Overall, I’d say the SXXI’s left cheek is better than the M1A1’'s, but it’s slower by a decent amount as a result.
The right cheek for the S1(the same as with the SXXI’s) is much better than the right cheek of the M1A1.
The mantlet area is much more prone to getting one-shot though.
If we look at the Abrams and Leclercs from an angle, the Leclerc’s armour still can hold up enough to only cause the gunner / commander to get knocked out, maybe the breech too. Rarely does it go through the blow-out panels though, unless you aim for the commander / gunner view ports, or the turret bustle itself (if you are able to).
The Lecercs also have Gen 2 thermals, gunner and commander on opposite sides, and no NATO Hump so it’s not just the extra turret armour that it works with.
I see. I would still say M1A1 takes the win here, as while it might have a slightly worse turret, M1A1 brings in:
- ESS
- More smoke pops (3 vs 2)
- Better survivability
- Better hull
- Composite sideskirts that resist autocannons quite well
- Better depression (You can really feel that 2 degrees)
- Snappier chassis (Leclerc feels like its tracks have molasses on them, turns and responds terribly)
- I’m pushing it putting this as a pro, but the rooftop .50 allows you to detrack and smoke + squadmarker kill them while you remain in cover
- More shells (You are largely limited to 23 in Leclerc, while you can carry 35 in M1A1)
- Better APFSDS shell
- Utility shells (MPAT, SAP-HEAT)
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I agree.
I agree here too, though the LFP doesn’t stop any round past ~ 105mm DM63 (430mm+) The UFP is still good though.
Better survivability on what basis?
Turret ring is exposed regardless of what angle the autocannon is coming from, so while that’s nice, it’s not a huge benefit.
I agree with this.
I can’t really verify it without asking some of my friends, but I assume you are correct.
That’s also true, though pretty situational. I can’t say that I’ve had the time or situation to do that with just a 50.cal (especially after they nerfed its belt size). If it were the 2K’s 20mm though…
Not without increasing your risk of ammo detonation while hull-down.
Agreed, though Leclerc’s APFSDS round is good enough, with the difference in spalling usually being the same or similar. I do like how M829A1 can UFP the T-80Us sometimes, though.
Yeah they’re also also quite nice.
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Simply due to larger crew count. There would be an argument pre-basket for Leclerc but not post.
I found it to be very useful against BMPTs, as most of them don’t even know the Abrams has the composite sideskirts and will try to aim for sides like they would on any tank, to no success. Of course you are on a timer for until the sideskirts blow off, but its a good chunk of time.
I prefer to take this risk. I honestly do not recall being one tapped through cheek through ammo all that much with it either, nothing more than usual.
That thing is demonic. Toxic as hell on 2K/MBT/KPz.
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My argument is that you cannot ammo rack the Leclerc nearly as easily while hull-down as with the M1A1, even if it’s decently comparable.
The blowout panel usually stops most rounds (even if they penetrate the cheeks), and even if you do shoot the breech / right-side cheek, the chance that it explodes is less likely than shooting the cheeks with the Abrams because the Leclerc’s ammo is spaced out more evenly, and is not slanted diagonally.
550RPM 30mm APDS shreds through rather quickly it from my experience, and more times than not they just go for the turret ring anyways.
I prefer taking more ammo than the first stage too, but I can’t say I share the same experience.
I one-shot kill M1A1s and Type 90s through their turret cheeks quite often with the Challenger 2s.
Agreed.
I will say, M1A1 getting detonated through turret cheek isn’t that common overall. Its quite hard to tell if its an M1A1 or M1A2, so most people will aim for the breach.
While yes M1A2 can wiggle and just parry it, most shots on M1A1 turret will be for the breach, which is better than being dead.
That is true.
I timed it somewhere on the forums, and it was 3 seconds I believe? Or something around that. I’ll retest when I’m online.
Pretty iffy, especially if it’s a downtier where the M1A2 wouldn’t exist (or a 10.7 match for the matter).
Besides, it’s not like they wouldn’t be missing their shot.
Hull-down, I’d say the Leclerc has a better chance at surviving a shot (and possibly even returning fire) than the M1A1, though I’d say they’re just about as survivable as one another when shot in the hull. The extra crew member is nice on the M1A1 but the turret basket + engine shot usually allows an easy follow-up shot anyways.
Really depends on the situation, but I from my experience, if the BMPT catches you lacking, 9/10 times your turret basket gets taken out before you can react… then your tracks / barrel, then your crew members… and then you’re dead.
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Yeah in that case you could wiggle your turret on M1A1 and parry the 2A4 for example. You know for sure he doesn’t have a round powerful enough to cheek you.
That is probably true.
I disagree here. Both can get basket engined just as easy, but M1A1 has a higher chance to survive (assuming the shooter does not follow up, either you trade shots or he is killed by a teammate)
It depends on how badly he catches you off guard. If its a second or less before you shoot him, theres a good chance you will live. But if its like 2 or 3, you are most likely dead.
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Again, if the Abrams has ~200mm of KE protection for the turret ring then that would be a whole different story. The BMPT would then have to go for the side armour, or use its ATGMs, or try and hit the barrel (which can be relatively easy or difficult depending on the range).
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