france has issues with politics too, they just can’t beat germany 😎
i mean but what attica was it? or is there only 1 attica
Anything with a larger profile requires armour to be spread across a larger area. Therefore, less armour can be concentrated. If the Leclerc hull only needs to (hypothetically) fit 2m² of armour to cover the entire hull meanwhile the Leopard needs to fit 3m², well then, if both can only take up to 10t of armour - which one is going to be better armoured?
2 Likes
There is 2 I belive but they only differ in resolution. Still both are 3rd gen @FurinaBestArchon can probably answer it better
trick question. It depends on the power of the engine and transmission which allowes how much armor can be carried while still retaining speed
if there is more area in the hull dosent that mean more armor can be fit in that area? oh nvm i get it you mean the ammount of material used for a larger area but with the same or more lenght i was still stuck on the idea you were talking about hull lenght not height
1 Like
Nice. Anything to show that German politics was directly responsible. I mean, I’ve attached the manufacturer stating that they couldn’t find the physical space to fit everything…
1 Like
i mean you didnt, you just added a picture of a book /pdf title and tell us to trust you
1 Like
Almost? Since when is S21 only as heavy as S2 variants.
It has a much smaller frontal profile than the Leopard 2 so it could possibly achieve a similar level of protection to modern Leopards if weight were the only constraint to be considered.
What’s “similar level of protection” are we talking about because given Leclerc’s thinner armour pockets, I can’t see them achieving ~700mm RHAe over a wide arc the same way Leopard 2s do.
Currently, the Leclerc hull (in real life) should have between 600 - 700mm LOS of composite excluding the lower front plate but that’s mostly empty.
Here’s the answer to this particular question.
Whether the French would be able to increase that to the 1000mm that you previously claimed (awhile ago now) that the Leopard 2 has… well, none of us could answer that question.
Oh it’s not really a “claim” per se, I’m using known armour dimensions that are based on either ‘leaked’ or public blueprints of in-service Leopard 2 guts where the hull’s armour space was estimated at between ~700 and ~725mm. From there you cos(60) the add-on for the final results.
I misspoke here, I meant shorter hull in terms of height.
I don’t think it is smaller height wise either. The reason why Leclerc may appear smaller is because the turret’s flatter than Leopard 2s.
Really? Have we not argued enough to consider each other’s sources legitimate?
Why do you think it’s cause I don’t consider your source “illegitimate”? I just want to add it to my collection :)
It applies in all dimensions. If your vehicle is overall smaller (in heigh, width, length, or any combination of those), you can fit deeper armor hence more LOS, hence better armor for the same weight. Now, considering the overall surface coverage of the Leopard and Leclerc, as well as their weight, the Leclerc does not lag in this metric. Then, it will also depend on the composite tech, but that’s not something either of us can argue about
1 Like
Well your source is outdated since they litteraly field Leo’s with Attica since 2015 or so
KMW cited economic troubles (i.e the infalliable and benevolent BAAINBw hadn’t paid for it) as the reason behind ATTICA-M2 not being installed in the existing variants. Leopard 2A8 is meant to correct that “mistake”.
1 Like
yeah i just was thinking in hull lenght not width and height
His source is from 2013 I’m sure they are talking about og Attica. Which got fielded later on 2A6M+ first
Maybe, but I’m talking about the reason why Leopard 2A7V in particular doesn’t have the M2 version, despite the fact it’s been mounted in the turrets of other vehicles.
1 Like
Current weights in-game are incorrect. S2 should weigh 56.5t. SXXI should weigh 56.6t. 8.4t rounds up to 10t close enough :p
I’ve seen this source. It was from Laviduce who claimed it was a manufacturer diagram. This is not the case. The original diagram was made by some random person on some forum over a decade ago. I tracked down the original diagram but it was over 3 months ago, else I would send you a link to the forum post if I had it lying around. Other sources indicate 700mm across the hull and 600mm across the UFP (the latter is due to limitations from a short chassis length).
Leclerc is 1.74m high? How much is the Leopard 2s, I genuinely don’t know.
Ah, I misinterpreted.
2013, A modular packaging approach for upgrading tanks with staring thermal imagers.zip (2.1 MB)
Well then, may I ask in return if I can have the full source for this?
Spoiler
I’ve always been rather curious.
2 Likes
Doubtful. There are different types of ATTICA TIs. The megapixel TI the Germans wanted to fit to the Leopard should be considerably more capable than whatever ATTICA is found on the 2A7. German TI naming conventions all sound the same to me hence my ambiguous naming of the different ATTICAs.
1 Like
Current weights in-game are incorrect. S2 should weigh 66.5t. SXXI should weigh 66.6t. 8.4t rounds up to 10t close enough :p
Huh, didn’t know S2 & S21 are almost 10 tons underweight. Mind sharing your sources on that? Obviously you typo’d, I’m just cracking a joke here.
Other sources indicate 700mm across the hull and 600mm across the UFP (the latter is due to limitations from a short chassis length).
I’ve seen those “other sources”, but none of them seemed particularly trustworthy so I went with Lavi’s since she’s quire reliable.
Leclerc is 1.74m high? How much is the Leopard 2s, I genuinely don’t know.
1.77m at the engine hump.
Well then, may I ask in return if I can have the full source for this?
Ahh, I’ll send it to you in DM’s cause I need to look for it first.
Well your source is from 2013 when Attica was freshly developed. There wasn’t really a variety in varaiants and no Leo in service with it. So it’s highly that ist just about getting Attica on the platform which was done a few years later
Understandable. I’ll see if I can’t find the original forum post later.
Interesting. Well if it makes any difference the Leclerc is 160mm less wider.
In any case, the low weight of the Leclerc shouldn’t be discounted. I don’t know if the Leclerc hull could realistically achieve up to 1000mm LOS. We’ll see eventually if the XLR does end up 65t as sources suggest and how the armour is changed. FYI: The current “XLR” is just still just an SXXI but with a different BMS.
1 Like