I’m taking issue with the hull armor, especially since its x-ray modeled to have at least 550mm LOS thickness on the upper plate yet only models the two steel plates for ~300mm of LOS thickness.
@Jεcka 's posts are pretty much what I was complaining about in 2023 and 2024.
While I’d love extra turret armor, at least that has bounced sometimes.
I don’t want to sound rude or agressive, just adding to the conversation, but, you come to this thread talking about how bad the Leclerc armor is using a 3D model from KNDS website, and when the Leo 2 is brought up in the conversation about a 3D model from the same website, it can be dismissed, as “the Leo is gutted” to only show infos “deemed safe enough to be released”. That does sound like a double standard, and if the Leo 2 model can be dismissed, the Leclerc should likewise be dismissed because it shows the website’s 3D models, although “primary”, gives inaccurate/heavily undermined informations.
Because it is gutted? I’m sorry but what else am I supposed to tell? I don’t know KNDS’ reasoning for releasing a 3D model of the 2A7+ without pretty much any details about its armor cavities. If they had, I’d be posting them in German threads.
This is how it looks from the inside on the 2A7 model:
There is nothing to indicate where the armor cavity ends like on the Leclerc, they didn’t even model the internal plates on it, so I have literally nothing to go off on.
The wedges are also empty
And the gun area.
we speak about them because we actualy compared both models and saw the differences?
The leo 2a7v has clear differences where stuff was removed, hell there is points where u can look into it from the outside
That is not the case with the leclerc
I’m not complaining that the Leo 2 is gutted, just saying that if one model is gutted, the other most probably also be wrong. As I said in my first post about the matter, Giat (and Nexter, and visibly KNDS as a whole today) have a tendency to not give accurate geometry of their vehicles. That was shown in the diagrams of the Leclerc from the 90s and 2000s, and that’s obviously shown in the Leo 2 model. I haven’t had a look at the model because I absolutely have no idea how to use blender, but following this track record the model of the Leclerc obviously cannot be used for a report.
To me, it more than likely looks like a graphic designer did a blender model tracing the geometry on a diagram, without following exact measurements, to create the overall geometry of the vehicle
This is a slippery slope…
Just because X is unfinished doesn’t mean Y has to be unfinished as well. Gah, the fact one very clearly shows that its at vastly more advanced stage of modeling should be an indication that they’re likely going to update the Leo 2 model in the future as well.
Why Leo 2 is currently so gutted is not known to me, I’ve only speculated why it is, you really needn’t take my speculations on that at face value.
buddy just look at the actual model and look for yourself lol, you are complaining about it and didnt even look at it yourself yet realy.
The points we bring up are clearly in the model without signs of removal etc, You holding onto that in that moment is just plain hope from your side not wanting to see the truth
Hoz is that slippery lol. If someone you hired does a bad job at something, how can you expect them to do it correctly in another situation. Assuming that while one is incorrect the other one is correct should logically be the slippery slope.
yeah, you are trying to gaslight yourself not wanting it to be the truth.
There is clear quality differences between the 2 proving
is not the case
Damn I’m just expressing doubts and I am instantly “holding onto that moment”. Guess some people might really be pissed that France is actually highly competitive at top tier thanks to it’s air lineup
Because you are assuming it’s bad modeling… when it could be ya know… an early release… a stage release, meant to show off KNDS’s ability to model things in 3D, there’s a lotta reasons, yours is almost definitely not one of them.
The models are currently more accurate externally than War Thunder’s (and I plan on using the Leo 2 model in bug reports for the 2A7V and 2A7HUN), fun fact -,-
i didnt play since over a month monster hunter wilds is a great game
The only reason i did play now is cause of the aprils event vehicles which are easy to get.
I could care less about the current state of top tier.
Fact is just you are claiming stuff and didnt even realy look at the models yourself, hoping it to not be true and trying to find excuses to dismiss them
Sounding like you work at KNDS to dismiss me so quickly, or maybe you are coping just as hard as you believe me to. I don’t think it’s illogical to assume that if one model isn’t accurate, the other probably isn’t. That’s like on of the fundamentals of logical thinking, Ockham’s razor and all that.
Facts are that I have not claimed anything, except brought some logical thinking. As for why I did not look at the models myself, it’s because I have no clue how to use Blender ;/. However you have, and also have confirmed that the leo2 is incorrect. If you followed the thread, you would have noticed that I was interested in your findings, until you mentioned that, and only then did I actually expressed very strong doubts
Sorry? xD
Yea I’m dismissing your idea, because assuming someone’s done a bad job is vastly more idiotic than assuming they’ve got better reasons for why the models are the way they are. You are free to believe whatever you want, it’s not my job to change your mind, and I don’t care enough to. I only came here to share the fact this model exists, that it should be the primary source for the size of armor cavities from now on, and to banter with you guys.
Technically speaking, I could dismiss you on the grounds of you committing yourself to a false cause fallacy, I didn’t, so yea, I’m sorry you feel this way.
confirmed that the leo2 is incorrect
Um, we NEVER said the model is incorrect?
There is no practical reason to produce a fake or altered version for KNDS. The dimensions also line up correctly, and it’s only sensitive areas that have been deliberately removed, suggesting that they didn’t “just do a bad job”.
We’re going in circles now so honestly I’m wrapping this up here, if you wanna continue believing they mismodeled one because the other is “incorrect” (which it isn’t), feel free to. Have a good evening mate.
This is stupid, the armor change won’t even change the gameplay much aside making the hull down better and flat ground worse slightly
Why aren’t we discussing the massive amount of lost speed and mobility Leclerc has, the potential for new ammo types that give different benefits, the side skirts still being devoid of their existence for some reason, the other large nerfs to the Leclerc, especially Azur being borderline fictional,?
Because we still haven’t got regen steering in the game (promised to us about… 11 years ago, by the way), strictly making any mobility discussions pointless as the mobility of modern MBT revolved around them being able to keep their speed when turning.
You can talk about acceleration, though,
The max speed is huge too. The 90kmh claim is well-written, has many primary sources, and follows all guidelines. Yet they do nothing about that and let it rot
i mean, we could care less about that aspect either way, we only shared the new official KNDS model with you guys. People of the french community not accepting it, aint on us
Leclerc has exterior and interior fuel tanks.
Red = Interior
Blue = Exterior
The exterior fuel tanks do not cause the tank to explode.
Fair enough.
I thought both upper sides of the Leclerc’s hull had an exterior fuel tank lining the whole way through, but the left side is smaller.
This is definitely more of the case with the 2A7V:
All armour plates should and does create spalling. This is just an instance of the ERA acting like a fuel tank and absorbing most of the spall.
The reason why the shell didn’t create any further spalling is because of the ‘void’ that you mention.
Ah yeah, because it would make sense for the people at KNDS to "leak"full internal models of their tank. You assumed that they somehow decided to remove sensitive info one the Leo but not on the Leclerc. I assume that the model are only used for exterior 3D viewing, and thus only a 3D designer was involved, using blender on 2D geometry patterns to reconstruct the vehicle, which is inherently flawed if you want to try to pixel measure armor layout. The result will be incorrect. Close, maybe, maybe not. The leopard 2 being gutted is a clear proof of that to me. They didn’t have access/used high definition 2D plans, so they were limited in their ability to make it.
So this is correct to you ?
Removed, but only for the leo2, that’d be weird. You assume they removed information, I assume that the guy(s) that made the model didn’t have all the informations (because why would you need and want the internal layout to be presented on a public 3D model that can be downloaded by anyone).
