Amazing work finding the info about the Type 94 Surveillance Glass and Ki-102 w/ Ki-148 testimony. Very valuable information, thank you!
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I agree. Also, concerning the nose-seated crewperson, a bug report was made and passed to the developers, so we should hopefully see him added in so that he can man the guidance system and any telescopic sight for tracking the missile.
My idea was that there would be a new view that would take the place of bombsight view when the missile is equipped, and which is only available after the missile has been launched. If the telescopic sight used was like the one used in lower-tier Japanese fighters like the Ki-44-I Ko, the zoom available would be very beneficial.
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This is interesting. I had known that the Ki-102 was intended to carry the Ki-148, but I was not aware that such a configuration was actually tested. The testimony says that the nose was hollowed out to make room for a missile guidance crewperson. Does this mean that the nose was replaced with a sort of glass one so that the operator could see and guide the missile? Or was there a scope used by the operator that stuck through the nose?
This is an idea, but given that the radio altimeter was built into the missile, I believe it would have to be toggled before spawning in; it could not be toggled remotely. Nevertheless, such a pre-spawn toggle would be useful for ground battles, where the altimeter would likely get in the way.
It would be a debate, however, whether it would be historically accurate to have the altimeter even be toggleable, but it could probably work in-game anyway.
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In reality, Ki-148 was tested with radio altimeter that automatically lowered and maintained the altitude to just above the surface of the sea. In-game, it isn’t present, probably as an intentional balancing factor, so it can be used against tanks. In reality, Ki-148 will also level automatically at the horizon, but in game it levels at the launch incidence.
According to US documents, radio altimeter was not reliable and was ‘removed’. But Japanese documents or books do not usually mention this. The testimony found by @tester188 also implies that the altimeter was present in tests near the end of the war. So it seems unclear, but I think it’s fine that GJ opted to not include the radio altimeter.
@tester188 said that the altimeter was found to be unreliable and removed from the Ki-147, but that it was successfully used in the Ki-148. Thus, I think it would be proper to add it to the game.
Its primary purpose would be in naval battles for long-range shots, and it could probably be overridden in combat by using the vertical guidance controls. However, if it did indeed auto-level at the horizon, then the usefulness of this implementation would be questionable…
That makes sense. However, if they add it to the game, the use in ground battles will be very difficult. In real life this is of course only an anti-ship missile, but GJ has marketed it more as an anti-tank weapon, probably because naval is not popular.
I have no objection to making the missile more realistic, but this is a reason it may be unlikely for GJ to implement it in terms of gameplay.
Aside from this, although I don’t have contrary evidence, I am somewhat skeptical of the explosive mass of Ki-148 in the game. Out of the 300kg shaped charge, in-game only 130kg, or 43%, is explosive mass. Does anyone know if this is reasonable for a shaped charge? For example, the massive shaped charge developed for Ki-167 (Sakura-dan) had an explosive mass of about 70% the warhead weight, although this is radically different in scale.
I am not able to find a source which can detail the explosive vs. inert mass of Ki-148’s warhead, so I’m assuming that GJ simply guessed an amount.
The filling rate of 43% is close to the value of the Army Type 92 250kg bomb.
The hollow charge warhead for torpedoes developed by the Japanese Navy has a charge rate of 58%.
The explosive type may not have been Shimose explosives (picric acid), but rather RDX 50%+TNT 50%, typically used in Japanese Army hollow charge shells and bombs.
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Thanks for the information. I think we can assume that the ratio of explosive mass may be greater in Ki-148’s warhead than an ordinary bomb, due to the tail structure and probably thicker casing on a bomb. The Navy shaped charge is a great comparison.
I feel that the explosive mass of Ki-148’s warhead is probably >50%, but it’s possible that there may not be a source in existence.
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Concerning the observation glass of Ki-147,
The Mitsubishi document of course tells us that a separate tracking glass is equipped to command the Ki-147 missile. However, pilot testimony of controlling Ki-147 says that to observe the missile “we used only the naked eye” and the exhaust flame was not visible, “only the smoke”. Moreover, they say that despite this “it was possible to lose sight of it but not very frequently”.
Refer to Japanese Aircraft Relative Performance, Serial No. 436, Report No. 2-T in my old suggestion: Mitsubishi Ki-147 & Kawasaki Ki-148, "I-Gō"「イ号」- Japanese Guided Missiles! - Passed for Consideration - War Thunder - Official Forum
First, I think that the bright orange paint of Ki-147 and Ki-148 described in sources given by @tester188 was probably for visual assistance, not just an experimental camouflage. So I would like to see the Ki-148 in orange camouflage in the game.
Both Ki-147 and Ki-148 must have used the Type 94 Surveillance Scope to range the target warship and determine the launch time.
However, I think that the testimonial evidence suggests that the operator did not originally have a dedicated tracking scope to guide the missile. We know that Ki-147 was less accurate than Ki-148 because of its characteristics:
- radar altimeter with limiter did not work on Ki-147
- control deteriorated at the end of flight because of pneumatic power system that depleted when pumping fuel on Ki-147
On the other hand, Ki-148 had a hit rate of 70-80% on large targets. Because of Ki-147’s inferior accuracy in testing, I would theorize that they decided to equip a tracking glass later. There is more space for additional equipment in the nose of Ki-67 than Ki-48II, so I am not sure that Ki-147 + Ki-67 having a tracking scope added means that Ki-148 + Ki-48II also had one. We need visual evidence of course.
Now here is something a little interesting. Mitsubishi’s report states that only the initial 10 prototypes of Ki-147 were built. However, this high-res image of Ki-147 seems to show the serial number ‘11’ on the side:
Here’s a prototype missile showing the serial number ‘2’:
Some sources state that a limited production of a few missiles continued after the initial 10 prototypes, and I think this is true. If so, this photo must have been taken in the later period of testing. If a tracking glass was added, it might be present in this plane, but sadly the nose is not in the photograph.
There is another close angle, but the inside of the nose is indistinguishable for me:
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This is not the guidance system for Ki-148, this is a Type 99 Bombsight (九九式爆撃照準器), a reflector type bombsight for level bombing that replaced the older Type 88. In this photo, it is installed in the nose just above the position where the Te-4 MG would be. I am skeptical that this image is related to Ki-148 mothership unless the source explicitly states that.
The guidance device for Ki-148 is described as being similar to an aircraft control stick.
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It seems the moderators have stopped responding to the reports regarding this. Does anyone know if this plane will get its historical loadout of bigger bombs? There is also another issue I reported here. Please support it if you can!
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A bug report has already been approved for the 2 x 250 kg bomb or 1 x 500 kg bomb options based on the primary source pilot manual.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/FaaRXHsBCJF4
For reference, this is a drawing of a Ki-48-II Ko, explaining how it carries a 250 kg bomb.
“Type 99 Twin-engined Light Bomber”, Military Classics, Vol. 81, Spring 2023, p. 98
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Yeah, I wouldn’t mind having to disable it first.
I didn’t think it was a radar altimeter though? It doesn’t hold altitude, just attitude/direction. If it just held altitude it would be way way easier to use!
Edit: I just read the comments after this - would love to have the radar altimeter, I find the current implementation of it’s guidance lacking otherwise.
So that means that the moderator was wrong when he said that the Ki-48 missing the bomb sight is correct (?)
For the plane as modeled in-game? Yes. They modeled a bombsight, but it isn’t functional.
For the Ki-148 motherplane in real life? I doubt they used a level-bombing sight in the guidance of Ki-148, that wouldn’t really work. However, I have not seen a clear enough picture to be able to distinguish what is inside the Ki-148 motherplane’s cockpit.
Regardless, I think it’s silly that GJ implemented Ki-148 mothership as a separate plane, it could really be a loadout of a tech-tree Ki-48II, as the differences aren’t much bigger than changing equipment.
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After speaking to a senior suggestion moderator (@leroyonly), I have some news regarding this situation.
The devs seem very adamant (for some reason) that the Ki-48 in game be strictly the missile-carrying plane, and as such, in a future update, the aircraft will receive a slight name change in-game to reflect this. Thus, it will not be eligible for the features of a standard Ki-48.
However, suggestions can be made for the standard variants. Unfortunately, because a Ki-48 is now in game, a single overall suggestion for “standard” Ki-48s would not be allowed. Therefore, suggestions will need to be made on a per variant basis as follows:
- Ki-48-I (can also be split into Ko and Otsu suggestions)
- Ki-48-II Ko
- Ki-48-II Otsu (Standard variant)
- Ki-48-II Hei
This is not the outcome I would have hoped for, but it seems to be what we’ll have to work with.
Note: This discussion with the moderator occurred a few weeks ago, so I apologize for getting back late.
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Can you please fix the title, everytime i scroll past it, it gives me a slight tick. It either lacks features or has some issues. But not lacks some issues. If it would lack the issues it wouldnt have them and all would be allright.
Otherwise, please keep up the work, it really needs that historical bomb sight to follow the rocket, aiming and actually hitting anything is just impossible without it.
Sorry, the title is no longer editable :(