How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

Getting 2 air kills (the only enemy planes to spawn whole game), multiple ground kills, and a point cap is better than getting 2 air kills (the only enemy planes to spawn whole game).

Implying that the Gepard is able to kill the exact two planes the York can. Which isn’t nessesarily true. ATGM helicopters and CAS with guided missiles are very consistently countered by the York, and not by the Gepard. Z-11Ws in particularly just laugh, pull slightly, then send a missile at the offending Gepard.

@Pangolin_Fan

Skill issue

Go ahead and counter the A-10’s 6-8 km Maverick spam with a stinger that has 5 km range. I’ll wait. Oh, right, you’d actually have to play the vehicle you’re asserting is OP for that.

@Pangolin_Fan

It’s barely larger, and has 20mms and more HVARs so it’s better at countering CAS.

Do I really need to explain that the F6F trounces the Helldiver in a dogfight in both pilots are equally skilled?

@Pangolin_Fan

No1 is claiming the M36 (F6F-5) is terrible. I’m simply claiming I prefer to play M36B2 (SB2C)

You’re claiming that the F6F isn’t exceptional despite having similar capabilities to aircraft that are higher tier than it.

@Pangolin_Fan

From my experience, it has a pretty strong engine. Much like the F4U-4B, it turns like shit, but you can with fights simply with engine power.

F6F-5, on the other hand, has worse energy retention and has less engine power. Ontop of that, it gets .50cals instead of 20mms, and worse payload options.

The Hellcat (and most other non anemic engined fighters at the tier) completely trounces the Firefly in power to weight due to how heavy it is. Combined with the larger wing area, that results in more speed bleed in manuevers, particularly vertical ones. This is what makes it such a pain to fly.

I’ll take 3 1000 lbers over 2 500 lbs and hard to aim RP-3s on a worse platform.

@Pangolin_Fan

Well I’m sorry you have so much trouble with German 20mms. From my experience, they shred planes and open-tops insanely quickly.

If the planes are dumb enough not to immediately outpull the 410, it would. But when they do, the low velocity and the 410’s clunky handling prevent you from pulling the lead nessesary to hit, let alone keep up with them in the turn.

They pop open tops, but so do .50s. With the benefit that .50s can also punch through 20-25mm of armor, while the 20mms can only do 20mm at suicidely close range.

@Pangolin_Fan

Stat cards mean nothing.

Love to see what official source of information you’re using. Because going off feeling alone is irrelevant.

@Pangolin_Fan

I just shoot em. The 23mm have incredible range, so climbing isn’t a valid counter.

It’s trivial to avoid a headon against an IL-2. They can pull, but they have terrible roll rate and horrible energy retention. All you need to do is dodge the headon and then fly up. By the time they’ve done a 180, they’ve blown so much speed that they can’t match any vertical manuever that doesn’t just leave you stalled out, meaning you’ve already won.

@Pangolin_Fan

XD you spend more time checking stats on vehicles I haven’t played in months than you spend playing Warthunder.
Here are my “CAS main” lineups.

“The lifetime stats of my account mean nothing, here’s 6 loadouts that I assure you were picked randomly. That’s irrefutable proof of some kind”.

@Pangolin_Fan

So you’re mad that people aren’t playing their most powerful vehicles at a given BR? Do you want people to just not play 5.7 America?

I’m not debating whether or not 5.7 American ground is bad, it’s complicated and not worth getting into.

But if you’re playing GRB to play tanks, why are you insisting on playing at a BR with tanks that you consider terrible? Why not play any other BR, which allows you to play tanks that aren’t terrible and unlocks new tanks? The only reason you’d bring that many planes at the expense of tanks is because you want to play planes over tanks.

@Pangolin_Fan

You are the only one who’s claimed that. I’m saying they should be 9.0

Read what I wrote again.

@Pangolin_Fan

Congrats, you have discovered what happens when you don’t play low-midtier America for months.

It gives supernatural powers in a single random vehicle? Far beyond other vehicles at that tier which you’ve been playing simaltaneous?

Truely, the skill it takes to orbit outside of SPAA range and salvo off fire and forget weapons over and over is truely dizzying.

@Pangolin_Fan

The fact that you think Bosvark and M42 are bad is honestly somewhat depressing.

Strawman arguments work best when it’s something even remotely related to what the person was talking about.

[Aegis270]

@山_田_凉

The existence of SPAA should be a given when considering balance. Not spawning SPAA is simply player error.

It’s a team comp error at best, and that relies on the team actually having some coordination in the first place. Never a given in War Thunder. Unless you’re willing to spawn SPAA yourself, you cannot count on your team doing it when nessesary.

@山_田_凉

SPAA is common at this BR (7.7 to 9.3) anyways. Given how Gepard and equivalents are extremely powerful against ground vehicles as well.

Gepard and equivalents who have gone tank hunting aren’t generally in a position to be engaging aircraft. Tank hunting relies on sneakily flanking enemies and hitting them from a vulnerable side angle they weren’t expecting.

Accordingly, the single worst thing you can do once you’ve commited to pushing up is firing into the sky, giving your exact position away to everyone near you. You might get the plane, but you’re also likely being pushing by something more heavily armored than you can deal with.

The only SPAA in a position to consistently engage are those who haven’t pushed too far in yet, which are a subset of those that spawn Gepards.

@山_田_凉

It’s overly difficult to get the advantage back in the first place. Even a skilled CAS player is weak against a novice SPAA player.

I don’t seem to struggle. Any my buddy, who’s a much better CAS pilot than me, doesn’t either. He’s currently sporting a 2.0 KD on the SAAB-105, despite currently running it in his 10.7 lineup. Low altitude thunder runs are his bread and butter.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Aegis270

Implying that the Gepard is able to kill the exact two planes the York can. Which isn’t nessesarily true. ATGM helicopters and CAS with guided missiles are very consistently countered by the York, and not by the Gepard. Z-11Ws in particularly just laugh, pull slightly, then send a missile at the offending Gepard.

Although York does it better, Gepard still counters helicopters fine enough.

@Aegis270

Do I really need to explain that the F6F trounces the Helldiver in a dogfight in both pilots are equally skilled?

SB2C turns sharper and has better guns. The F6F-5’s only advantage is speed.

@Aegis270

You’re claiming that the F6F isn’t exceptional despite having similar capabilities to aircraft that are higher tier than it.

No, I’m claiming that F6F-5 is just a worse option.

@Aegis270

If the planes are dumb enough not to immediately outpull the 410, it would.

If you fire from far enough away, they can’t pull hard enough to escape your guns.

@Aegis270

But when they do, the low velocity and the 410’s clunky handling prevent you from pulling the lead nessesary to hit, let alone keep up with them in the turn.

You seem to be having a problem I’m not. May I suggest that maybe, the problem is you?

@Aegis270

They pop open tops, but so do .50s. With the benefit that .50s can also punch through 20-25mm of armor, while the 20mms can only do 20mm at suicidely close range.

20mm pens more, has better postpen, and has HE. 20mm quite literally has every advantage aside from maximum firing range and ammo load.

@Aegis270

Love to see what official source of information you’re using. Because going off feeling alone is irrelevant.

I only care about one metric. How close the bomb has to land from a target to kill.

@Aegis270

It’s trivial to avoid a headon against an IL-2. They can pull, but they have terrible roll rate and horrible energy retention. All you need to do is dodge the headon and then fly up. By the time they’ve done a 180, they’ve blown so much speed that they can’t match any vertical manuever that doesn’t just leave you stalled out, meaning you’ve already won.

Again, I was talking about IL-8. The IL-8 rolls very well, and turns very well. I haven’t purchased my IL-2 (cause why would I?).

The interaction between IL-8 and enemy plane usually goes like this.

A. they don’t notice me and get shredded by 23mm

B. they notice me, go for a headon, and get shredded by 23mm

C. they notice me, try to pull away, get shredded anyways because the further away you are from a target, the less you have to turn to shoot them down.

@Aegis270

The lifetime stats of my account mean nothing

You mean the stats of vehicles I don’t play anymore? I don’t even remember the last time a spawned an M56 (the vehicle I supposedly have the most games in)

@Aegis270

here’s 6 loadouts that I assure you were picked randomly.

None were random, they’re simply the main lineups I use. When I click the “army” tab, those are the vehicles that come up for the respective nation, without any modifications made to the lineups.

@Aegis270

But if you’re playing GRB to play tanks, why are you insisting on playing at a BR with tanks that you consider terrible?

M36B2 and T1E1 are good, but they alone don’t make a lineup, and I fill the rest with CAS.

Why are you insisting I play at that BR?

@Aegis270

It gives supernatural powers in a single random vehicle? Far beyond other vehicles at that tier which you’ve been playing simaltaneous?

Look at literally any non-American vehicle I play. Yak-7B, Kv-7, M-51, Lorraine 155, Obj 292, IL-8, Vk 3002, WW2 Puma, SB2C-5, Do 335, M4A4, Stuart III, Cromwell V, ARL-44 (ACL-1), Hetzer.

There is a massive difference between the American vehicles I play, and the non American vehicles I play. This is because America was my first nation, and thus was played by the newest player. (there’s also the fact that American vehicles are typically worse than most nations, but lets ignore that)

@Aegis270

Strawman arguments work best when it’s something even remotely related to what the person was talking about.

You were downplaying the effectiveness of Bosvark and M42. I was saying they’re great vehicles. Simple as.

@Aegis270

Gepard and equivalents who have gone tank hunting aren’t generally in a position to be engaging aircraft.

It’s almost unheard of to play an 8.3 without there being one or more radar SPAA, dedicated to AA work.

[Aegis270]

@Pangolin_Fan

Although York does it better, Gepard still counters helicopters fine enough.

Based on your vast experience with Gepard?

As you would know if you’d played it, any remotely agile helicopter merely needs to hover >2 km out and provide constant, random inputs to the collective and flightstick. The resulting random jittering completely throws off any shot the Gepard fires and make the firing solution completely invalid, meaning the Gepard is forced to spray wildly to try and hit it by pure chance.

Meanwhile, the helicopter can just throw an ATGM at the Gepard at it’s leisure, forcing the Gepard into cover if it exists or killing it if it doesn’t.

@Pangolin_Fan

SB2C turns sharper and has better guns. The F6F-5’s only advantage is speed.

And power to weight. And accordingly energy retention. And thus any ability to win a dogfight where the Hellcat isn’t dumb enough to try and one circle something that outturns it.

Don’t make me keep pulling up this website just to prove that a single engined fighter is superior at CAP than heavy fighters/ground attackers.

@Pangolin_Fan

No, I’m claiming that F6F-5 is just a worse option.

Than a vehicle at a higher tier. Arugably, at that. The very fact that you need to use a higher BR’d vehicle to find an equivalent proves that the F6F is exceptional at 3.3.

@Pangolin_Fan

If you fire from far enough away, they can’t pull hard enough to escape your guns.

MG151s have poor ballistics. It’s not remotely difficult to dodge them at range, nor is it hard to outpull a 410 up close, and once you’re behind it it’s already over if you have something remotely capable of CAP.

@Pangolin_Fan

20mm pens more, has better postpen, and has HE. 20mm quite literally has every advantage aside from maximum firing range and ammo load.

Apparently you’re misremembering things.

.50 cals pen 30mm on the AP rounds, 28 on the API, at 0 meters, 0 angle. Accounting for distance and angle of a top down attack, that averages out to 25ish before you have to pull off.

MG151s have 27mm pen on the API, however, there is no majority API belt. The armored targets belt is majority APHE, which has just 21mm of pen. That’s under 20mm of pen until you’re effectively on top of the tank, way too late to pull off. Meanwhile, the API is at best 1 in 4, and 1 in 7 if you’re running air targets. Meaning the majority of your rounds will be doing nothing to any remotely armored target you’re strafing.

However, even if there were a majority API belt, it would still do less damage than the .50s. The Me-410 has a burst mass of 2.98 kg/s. This includes the 8mm machine guns, but we’ll ignore those for now. The F6F has 3.26 kg/s. And since the API rounds have no HE filler of note, the Hellcat will be doing more damage per second. On a smaller, more agile airframe with more ammo and more range.

You could say the armored targets belt makes you more lethal against very lightly armored but not unarmored tanks (like some SPAA), but that belt gives up all minengeshoss rounds, meaning you’re gimping your ability to take out aircraft.

@Pangolin_Fan

I only care about one metric. How close the bomb has to land from a target to kill.

Which until you can prove otherwise, is 12m for the 1000 lbers, and 10m for the 500 kgs.

The 1000 lbers have more explosive filler (318.48 kg TNT equiv versus 222.15 kg). Unless you can actually prove that the ingame figures are wrong, I have to assume this judgement is just based off vibes and ignore it.

@Pangolin_Fan

Again, I was talking about IL-8. The IL-8 rolls very well, and turns very well. I haven’t purchased my IL-2 (cause why would I?).

An IL-8 is just an IL-2 with a more powerful engine, at the cost of being heavier to the point that the power to weight almost evens out. It flys and handles almost exactly the same, just being slightly less vulnerable to burning all of it’s speed and ending up stuck in a low energy state.

@Pangolin_Fan

A. they don’t notice me and get shredded by 23mm

B. they notice me, go for a headon, and get shredded by 23mm

C. they notice me, try to pull away, get shredded anyways because the further away you are from a target, the less you have to turn to shoot them down.

So it’s good for CAP against:

A: Unaware players.
B: Players who attempt to headon things that outgun them.
C: Players who fail to avoid a headon by pulling too soon.

What high bars you set.

You also have a 0.4 KD against aircraft, so apparently it’s not all that effective at this.

@Pangolin_Fan

You mean the stats of vehicles I don’t play anymore? I don’t even remember the last time a spawned an M56 (the vehicle I supposedly have the most games in)

Your most spawned vehicles since the 21st of December are the XM800T and the M3 Bradley. Two more light tanks with scouting.

This is mostly irrelevant to the main point anyways.

@Pangolin_Fan

Why are you insisting I play at that BR?

I am, quite literally, suggesting against playing that BR if you find the tanks poor. If you needed to grind rank IV tanks, you could with a 5.3 or 5.0 BR lineup just fine. Even a 4.0 lineup would work, since you like the M19/42 so much.

But you don’t need to grind rank IV. You’re already up to rank VI. So you’re playing this BR for a reason. And if you don’t enjoy the tanks, then there’s only one reason, and that’s to play the vehicles that make up a majority of your lineup.

@Pangolin_Fan

Look at literally any non-American vehicle I play. Yak-7B, Kv-7, M-51, Lorraine 155, Obj 292, IL-8, Vk 3002, WW2 Puma, SB2C-5, Do 335, M4A4, Stuart III, Cromwell V, ARL-44 (ACL-1), Hetzer.

There is a massive difference between the American vehicles I play, and the non American vehicles I play. This is because America was my first nation, and thus was played by the newest player. (there’s also the fact that American vehicles are typically worse than most nations, but lets ignore that)

Even if this were the case, why would the A-10 be the single American vehicle to have vastly better stats than all of your new vehicles? Compared to the list you gave, you have by far the most battles in it, it’s the highest tier of them, against more experienced players, fighting the very same SPAA you claim are overperforming. And yet it’s your best performing CAS aircraft by a substantial margin. And yet it’s not exceptional as an airframe.

You’ve yet to justify that, by the way. How something that’s immune to SPAA with 6 fire and forget weapons at 10.3 isn’t exceptional.

@Pangolin_Fan

You were downplaying the effectiveness of Bosvark and M42. I was saying they’re great vehicles. Simple as.

Please quote where I said that. And highlight the part where that’s in any way relevant to this argument.

@Pangolin_Fan

It’s almost unheard of to play an 8.3 without there being one or more radar SPAA, dedicated to AA work.

It’s unheard of to have Germany, Sweden, GB and Japan on the same team (If all are even present in the game)?

To be more serious, neither of us can prove empirically how many SPAA are around at the tier on average. It’s personal experience against personal experience, which is a pointless debate.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Aegis270

You also have a 0.4 KD against aircraft, so apparently it’s not all that effective at this.

Having a poor k/d v.s air in a T95 clearly means I was using it as an SPAA and failed.

[MotorolaCRO]

@Pangolin_Fan

Skill issue

Skill issue is on a pilot getting Stinger’d.

@Pangolin_Fan

Although York does it better, Gepard still counters helicopters fine enough.

It doesn’t unless helicopter fully hovers, which is a skill issue.

[Flexmore]

@Pangolin_Fan

Although York does it better, Gepard still counters helicopters fine enough.

It does counter helicopters. but only if they fly directly over the battlefield and that makes every tank engage it with their .50s or other machine guns engage it too. The Gepard is literally useless if the helicopter hovers over 2km away from the battlefield. The stingers will not lock and the shots, which the tracers visibly the instant they fire, the pilot only has to move out of the way slightly and it doesn’t hit. Same with planes, aslong as you’re not sleeping as a pilot a stinger poses no threat. They’re the easiest missiles to dodge and if you attack with low and fast runs, the Gepard can’t react fast enough to shoot you too. The Gepard is not undertiered, it’s simply your lack of skills that presents you to him on a golden plate. You’d know if you actually played the Gepard.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@Aegis270

F6F is exceptional at 3.3.

Of course it is.

• 3x 1000 lbs bombs to deal with any heavy target.
• 2x HVAR to deal with any open-top - mainly SPAA
• 12,7mm with 2400 of ammo to deal with most ground units You are going to meet.

If someone says that at 3.3 there is somethign better or that S2BC is in any way better, that is just pure trolling or biased talk.

[RunaDacino]

@Pangolin_Fan

Much like the F4U-4B, it turns like shit, but you can with fights simply with engine power.

… F4U-4B turns like shit?

In what universe? It’s slightly heavier than the F4U-4 (whooping 0.2 tons!) with an amazing engine and incredible WEP. The F4U-4 can easily contest just about every german prop it faces in a low-speed fight (~300 km/h). Japanese props obviously beat it.

Edit: Looked at WTRTI.

35 minute fuel, 2 km, desert map.
Instantenous turn at 400 km/h - just under 25 degrees/second.
Sustained turn at 320 km/h - little over 20 degrees/second.

13 minute fuel, starting at 2 km. 1st block is me trying to maintain altitude and WEP at 320 km/h, second and third is me trying to flip the plane around ASAP with some gravity assists, fourth is me starting at 2km again with 360 km/h TAS and sustaining 360 km/h TAS thru WEP and sacrificing altitude. :

Best instantenous turn rate was achieved on eastern europe, Winter in these conditions (separate from graph as I failed to properly screenshot it the first time.

Graph

You can see the 25 deg/sec is not a fluke. Plus, turning nose-to-tail isn’t the only way to turn. You can turn nose into nose and that favours roll rate. F4U-4B rolls amazingly. I found incredible results turning nose into nose with the F4U-4 - got me my first 6:0 game!

p.s… I wish Statshark worked for props :c

[ULQ_LOVER]

In a universe where I don’t have ~5.8 K/D in it ;)

[Pangolin_Fan]

@MotorolaCRO

It doesn’t unless helicopter fully hovers, which is a skill issue.

Exactly, skill issue on the noob Gepard’s end.

[ULQ_LOVER]

Gepard can’t fight effectively helis at a distance of more than 1.5km while helis can.

[MotorolaCRO]

Not really.
Gaijin is still gatekeeping other nations from HE-VT for some reason, while US is the only one to get the privilege.

[Ion_492]

Something I’d like to add to this thread is that people would play SPAA more if you weren’t completelty useless if aircraft don’t spawn. I’m trying to play the M247, but I can barely do anything because no one spawns planes.

I’d also like to add that 8.3-10.0ish SPAA is very good, because planes can’t really do ranged attacks at those BRs, and it heavily contributes to a lack of CAS. Who could’ve thought that the BR where SPAA has the advantage has a lack of aircraft spawning in?

@MotorolaCRO

Gaijin is still gatekeeping other nations from HE-VT for some reason, while US is the only one to get the privilege.

Yet it’s locked behind a 40k RP grind. Good luck playing an 8.0 equivalent SPAA at 9.0.

[MotorolaCRO]

@Ion_Protogen

I’m trying to play the M247, but I can barely do anything because no one spawns planes.

I’ve had some success when using M811 Fuze Delay round. It will mostly one shot anything you pen which is perfect for many lights you find at ~9.0.

@Ion_Protogen

I’d also like to add that 8.3-10.0ish SPAA is very good, because planes can’t really do ranged attacks at those BRs, and it heavily contributes to a lack of CAS.

True, in my opinion helicopters at that BR range are stronger than (most) planes as most AAs can’t really engage them effectively.

@Ion_Protogen

Yet it’s locked behind a 40k RP grind. Good luck playing an 8.0 equivalent SPAA at 9.0.

Yeah it sucks but at least you’re grinding for something good.

[Pangolin_Fan]

It would be pretty retarded on Gajins end to give other nations HE-VT when they already have things like Gepard.

Although you don’t care about that, all you care about is making SPAA as OP as possible, except for America’s which you for some reason want as worse as possible.

[БЕИ]

They should though, the early Gepard doesn’t have weapon-effective range against most jets it faced, if anything it can only kill things in 1km, which is a range that it cannot save its ally from getting bombed by loser CAS mains, it only functionally self-serving at best in terms of AA, unlike M247, this thing can take out enemies before they can drop their load, stealth ammunition is a game changer and on top of it also create a mini explosion on impact which would damage enemy nearby, that means your bullet doesn’t have to land on the target directly to damage it, you can even hit jet >3km who fly straight as they wouldn’t notice they being shot at due to bullet having no tracers, and helicopter as far as 4km and I will find a reason to research Sweden tech tree if they add the HE-VT back to the VEAK. Also I have zero interest in playing them as I find them boring, I used them because I have to deal with cancerous pests that ruin things I enjoy.

Also this is a ground battle, players are encouraged to play ground vehicles so it makes sense for the main vehicle in this game mode should be strong, not turning into another game where everybody and their sisters are encouraged to get into a plane. Maybe try air RB if you wanna do that bro

[Pangolin_Fan]

@БЕИ

hey should though, the early Gepard doesn’t have weapon-effective range against most jets it faced, if anything it can only kill things in 1km, which is a range that it cannot save its ally from getting bombed

That’s plenty. Just stay near your teammates, and unlike M247, you have both the firepower and mobility to defend yourself in a sticky situation.

@БЕИ

if they add the HE-VT back to the VEAK.

It was removed because it didn’t exist. Either way, giving VEAK HE-VT would cause major balance issues as Sweden already has the Leopard 2 Gepard.

@БЕИ

Also this is a ground battle

The name doesn’t matter.

[UNN_Daedalos]

ha yes, all other nations have gepard

seriously maybe you could try playing something else than US for a while, and really check if others have it better

If any SPAA can historically get HE-VT, it should get it in game, period.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@dedale_stargate

If any SPAA can historically get HE-VT, it should get it in game, period.

What? You really think VEAK 40 used HE-VT?