“hey hey hey don’t you dare to discredit our sKiLlS in bombing tanks! and enough of you tank mains fails to acknowledge our superiority! this is our game! either you play it our way or don’t play at all”
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Surprisingly accurate representation. I love how one of them answered to the thread asking why they opposed any change with that “ground players weren’t showing enough respect”. As if they were some higher type of beings.
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The second, or im my opinion, the primary and largest issue, is how Radar based SPAA are modelled wrong. They are given SACLOS physics when in reality the SACLOS feature is merely a secondary fallback method. The main method of guidance can be viewed as SARH for simplicity and for in depth read the below given paragraph.
Spoiler
The SPAA Search radar detects azimuth of the Target. The Tracking radar scans in the direction of the provided azimuth from the search radar and locks onto the target.
The missile is launched and the flares on its rear are taken as relative points of reference by an IR sensor on the SPAA. Using the Azimuth, Elevation and the points of reference of the missile with respect to the gunsight/target (depending on which mode), the SPAA’s missile guidance computer calculates the angle of interception for the missile and sends radio signals telling the missile to adjust course.
This process is automatic and DOES NOT require human guidance of the missile. This method of guidance is NOT SACLOS. Officially, it is called either RFCLOS (radio frequency command to line of sight) or just CLOS (command to line of sight) guidance.
Unless Gaijin fixes this, SPAA will forever remain neutered and at a disadvantage against CAS.
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You have managed to describe the problem perfectly. And I confirm what you said, as I have also noticed this problem, they act almost like BOTs.
I am Italian main player and with my SPAAs I hunt down planes, I don’t stand around in spawn, I execute cover manoeuvres for allied tanks as they move by flagging enemies, or disabling enemy tanks by hitting them in the tracks and cannon, so as to give my teammate an easy kill, or as I capture the area I give air cover to my team’s tanks so as to prevent a 1000lb bomb from falling on their heads. That’s how you play with SPAAs
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Doesn’t matter
Others have already mentioned the issues stopping players from repositioning SPAAs, so I won’t go over those. I’ll just mention a point I haven’t seen mentioned here, which is the massive awareness gap between CAS and SPAAs at high tier (Top to ~10.3ish, when standoff range muntions become common).
CAS has a massive advantage in spotting and identifying threats. Not only do they get very high magnification optics, something which makes scanning for targets pretty easy (Doubly so for those that get thermals), but they also have third person view, giving them perfect spatial awareness of any incoming missiles due to the huge smoke trails. Said smoke trails can then be tracked back to the SPAA that launched it long before said missile ever gets close enough to threaten the plane, after which they can pretty trivially evade the missile and launch an attack against the offending SPAA.
Meanwhile, SPAAs get RADAR. Actually, some get RADAR. Some get a combo of search RADAR and IRST, meaning that while they get tracking indicators they cannot quickly or easily lock on to them. Some don’t even get a search RADAR, making them reliant on the good old Mk 1 eyeball to locate the tiny dots of aircraft at standoff range (Even worse if it’s a drone, which is practically invisible without thermals). And, as already mentioned, you cannot rely on RADAR, as doing so reveals your position to the enemy. Plus the search limits, meaning a plane that climbs high enough won’t appear on any scope except the Pantsir.
You ever wonder why you hear SPAAs doing aircraft pings at high tier? It’s because getting bearing and altitude information is actually more info than you get from the RADAR scopes of all SPAAs, and it’s all that SPAAs like the Type 81 and Strela get.
This is on top of the issue that planes have near infinitely more space to hide in than SPAAs do. As already mentioned above, maps are tiny for the purposes of top tier, and even smaller when it comes to places you can hide defenseless buses like most top tier SAMs. Meanwhile planes can come from practically any angle and altitude they wish for, meaning that while SPAAs have to watch the entire sky in case someone’s trying to flank them, CAS merely has to scan small sections of a tiny map from safety.
Finally, the real nail in the coffin that I’ve not seen mentioned here, that idealized scenario you have in the OP relies on the SPAA player having time after spawning to move into cover, something that’s in no way guaranteed unless you first spawn SPAA. Often times, by the time you’re spawning SPAA there are already CAS aircraft in range to engage you the second you spawn in, and the best way to help them do that is to slowly trundle your way to cover before engaging them. Even if you make it, they now have you pinned in cover and can make a pop up/vertical attack while you hope they get sloppy enough to forget you exist and eat a missile.
It also doesn’t account for multiple aircraft. Admittedly, this is already a lopsided fight, but it’s not an uncommon one, and unlike at low tiers it’s a lot harder to quickly switch targets as they make attack runs on you. The entire time you’re guiding a missile in at one plane, every other plane knows exactly where you are, and you can’t move without throwing off the guidance.
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I think to make it more fair for ground vehicles, they should make it that the hit marker cannot be seen by aircraft, that will help the lower tier a lot, for top tier where everything can zoom from planet mars is another story.
Not a bad suggestion, my only worry then would be that CAS pilots, if they were less able to spot targets on their own, would default to the one spot they know they’ll always find target. That being spawn. Dying seconds after spawning is already an extremely annoying occurance, I’d hate to do anything that encourages it.
I’ve got a few idea for top tier that might help:
- A TWS style overlay for search RADAR, allowing players to see visual boxes for each target detected by RADAR, to standin for the far more compreshensive amount of data real SPAAs would get from their RADARs.
- Different RADAR returns for different targets. There’s no way a scout drone, attack drone, helicopter and fully laden attack jet give identical RADAR returns IRL, and it would help players prioritize targets.
- A reduction in the visibility and duration of the smoke trail. Even if ahistorical, it counteracts the ahistorical advantage CAS aircraft have in spotting them due to the third person camera.
- Ground or air based AI RADARs that act as AWACS when called upon by SPAAs (Give bearing and altitude of all targets in their RADAR field), to give SPAA players more spatial awareness.
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They also need to fix the “Lock on” range. They reduced Lock on against Helicopters to absurdity, based on the most wonky of claims. This has lead to a situation where Helicopters hilariously outrange many SPAA. Seriously it’s ridiculous that at times helicopters can be right above you and you can’t goddamn get a lock for Stingers.
Couple this with better mobility, being able to look over many obstacles that block line of sight for ground vehicles, better zoom and you get a fairly lopsided match up.
Then there’s the weird fact that a lot of SPAAs have serious issues hitting helicopters. Especially if they lack proxy. When IRL they’ve been shown to fairly regularly hit them both with ballistic weapons and missiles. Gepard 1A2 for example still lack it’s FAPDS ammunition. Which is it’s MAIN/exclusive ammunition instead using a belt it never used.
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its not. the smoke trail being so visible is ahistorical, as is SACLOS guidance
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Please, I’d love to see you get good positions in small maps in SPAA’s like Pantsir’s or Flaraks.
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Bunch of stuff is really weird, ahistorical, and borderline broken. And virtually all of it at the expense of SPAA.
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Comparing toptier CAS to mid-tier SPAA?
Different sized targets appear different already. You’re suggesting something that’s already ingame.
Smoke trails are necessary for spotting missiles.
This I agree on. Every SPAA rank 6+ without tracking radar should have access to a static radar ai search radar.
The two ADATs have the issue of a search RADAR paired with IRST only, meaning no quick target acquisition. And the Type 81 has no search.
It’s also important to consider 10.3 SPAAs that will see uptiers to 11.3/11.7 (for nations who have a 10.7 lineup but no 10.7 SPAA). I can think of no other tier where a 1.0 (or 1.3) BR gap sees such a massive growth in the power and usability of CAS, without a similar growth in SPAA capabilities (Outlier Pantsir nonwithstanding).
A slight reduction in the length of the line on the RADAR scope (Where the difference is blink and you’ll miss it) is not analogous to what I’m asking for.
Which is why I’m not asking that they disappear (Apart from where historical, looking at you Chapparal/Type 93). I just want smoke trails to small enough that the CAS player has to be actively scanning for them to see them, and for the length to not be long enough that it’s trivially easy to trace it back to the SPAA that launched it.
At minimum. I’d say every >10.0 SPAA should get access, even if they have tracking RADAR. Between planes being able to sneak above the RADAR search zone of everything outside the Pantsir, and the ease at which players can use terrain (At least on some maps) to set up popup attacks, giving SPAA a tool that allows them to keep track of where everything is is nessesary.
That’s the result of 1.0-7.0 being ~6 years of advancement, whilst 8.0-12.0 is about 80 years of advancement.
8.7 CAS v.s 9.7 SPAA is in a similar position to 11.7 SPAA v.s 12.7 CAS.
There is a pretty massive difference between something like an AH-1 Cobra and an A-10A. The width of the radar line for the A-10A is 3-4x that of a Cobra.
They already do have to be actively scanning. It’s already very difficult for CAS without ballistics computers or guided weapons to operate with early SAMs up as a large portion of CAS gameplay simply scanning for and dodging SAMs, and not actually doing an CAS work.
What you’re proposing would increase the risk of CAS (an already very high risk vehicle to play) and reducing the risk of SAMs (an already low-risk braindead vehicle to play).
Yes, doing things based on BRs instead of ranks make sense, but that for some reason isn’t how Gajin does it.
That would completely defeat the purpose of tracking radar on SPAA. If anything, the static ai tracking radar should be WORSE than the tracking radars on SPAAs at its BR. SPAA is already very handheld, and flying above where radar can see you is one of the few things CAS can do to evade being detected.
The only 9.7 SAMs are the French Roland 1 and Lvrvb, neither of which can look up beyond 35 degrees, and only the Roland has a search RADAR. Neither missiles is particularly hard to dodge (Especially with how Rolands are now), and once you’ve gotten above the SAM you’re effectively invincible to it, and are free to engage at your lesiure.
The only other SPAAs at the tier are the Gepard 1A2 (An 8.3/8.7 SPAA with some easily dodged stingers slapped to the sides) and the Ozelot (Those same easily dodged stingers, just now with no guns to use when they miss). Oh, and the SIDAM 25 Mistral. I don’t think I need to tell you how mid this one is.
What CAS vehicles without those things are operating at SAM tiers? Any why would you be using them over options that have them?
This is a very funny thing to hear from someone who has not played any high tier SPAAs outside the Chapparal and M247, only managed 0.6 and 0.4 KD in them respectively, and has also managed a 4.5 KD in the A-10A Late.
Sure is high risk staying at range and salvoing off fire and forget weapons with impunity, huh?
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You should get used to it on this forum
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Planes like A-10A Late are their dream. Just spawn in, press couple of buttons and go back to base with CAP being your only real counter.
Any less of that, balance is surely broken in favor of AAs.
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[quote=“Aegis270, post:36, topic:201306”]
The only 9.7 SAMs are the French Roland 1 and Lvrvb
Ozelot, Gepard 1A2, Macthbet, Santal, Imp.Chapparal, Type 81, Santal, Skilka 4M4, need I go on?
Anyone playing 8.3 - 9.0 has to face SAMs, and most nations only have the F-84F.
Ahh yes, your only gauge of balance in Warthunder, the A-10A and the M247.
I mentioned those two.
The Machbet is 9.3, which is actually a 7.3 SPAA with a slightly better tracking RADAR (IRST, technically) and 4 easily dodgable stingers.
SANTAL is 9.3. Probably the best of the low tier IR SAM only SPAAs due to having a search RADAR and more difficult to dodge missiles, they’re still not particularly hard to dodge.
9.0 or 10.0, depending on if you’re talking about the American or Israeli one. Curious that you brought it up, since IIRC you consider it terrible. Which it is. Not exactly a mark in your argument’s favor.
11.3. I’ll be kind and assume you meant the Type 93, which is at 9.3 with a 10G missile. Trvial to dodge.
It’s still 9.3 no matter how many times you bring it up.
Also 9.3. Also a mediocre 8.3 SPAA with 10G missiles strapped to it.
G/91s, Alpha Jets, Scimitars, Buccaneer S1, SAAB-105s, all exist within that range.
I will happily agree that SPAA actually have an advantage over most CAS at this tier, but you still have to consider the high water marks.
And the “SAMs” that 8.3s have to fight can be effortlessly defeated by a barrel roll. The guns are the only real threats on them, all of which exist much lower.
Meanwhile, yours is apparently the very mediocre and overtiered F84F.
My point is that for someone who insists that CAS is underpowered and SPAA is overpowered you A) Haven’t played enough of either to make blanket statements like that and B) your stats do not show this at all, being absurdly, outlier level positive in the A-10A and solidly negative in the few SPAAs you do have at this tier.
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