You can fly higher and further than pantsir can reach
WT missiles are not affected by gravity while low drag made them even better
No ordinance except pure GNSS can lock beyond 20km
This one’s true, with the energy and mobility it can reach a bit more closer and shake off pantsir when attacking
I have a radical idea that fixes top Tier CAS and SPAA problems for everyone but we know GJ wont do it, I’ll share my idea but I know it wont happen.
Limit all SPAA missle range to 6.4miles ( 10km ) Yes I know some SPAA’s don’t currently have 6.4miles range but thats fine and can be kept that way.
Limit all A2G weapons that are lazor / GNSS / IR guided weapons to 6.4miles ( 10km ) Or at very least make it so none can be locked until within 6.4miles.
This way if you wanna play CAS your forced into SPAA range and if you want to play SPAA then CAS is forced into your range. Then let skill based game play decide if your getting kills in CAS or getting killed by SPAA.
Until GJ adds comparable SPAA to all nations like RU have ( Pansir ) then I think this would be the best step.
Lets not talk about historical accuracy either since GJ picks and chooses when it favours this idea and when its fine ( Example been the Brimestone not been allowed to have FnF but the Kh-38MT is just fine 0.o )
Worth perhaps mentioning that even when you do spawn AA, the rewards are not all that great for shooting down the planes.
7 Likes
At least for the Non-Russian High/Top-Tier SPAA the “realistic control” mode is severely limiting the capabilities as well.
You need to lead the missile but you get no guidance on that and with no visual depth it’s a guessing game to begin with.
In addition, at more than 6km distance the missile becomes prerty much uncontrollable if the target maneuvers.
So that’s still good for Strike Drones and some helicopters, but nothing else.
And in addition, some targets, say a KA-52, needs often 2 hits with the VT-1 to go down, which is why I started to bring the ASRAD out again, because it can single shot all helicopters.
All in all, the fact that people buy a premium for top tier and have no SPAA is making the situation bad and the sorry state of the SPAAs we have even worsens the situation more.
2 Likes
Which is something people LOVE to ignore. SPAA doesn’t just have to contend with CAS, but also tanks. Many maps are incredibly small, so for CAS it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. Many maps are also incredibly open and have little cover. Both against CAS and tanks wanting an easy kill.
A good SPAA player needs more awareness than a CAS one. Dodging enemy tanks, keeping line of sights both theirs and on them in mind, actually spotting and guiding missiles while CAS increasingly gets FAF.
I do enjoy CAS folks trying to lecture everyone else on how to be “better”.
15 Likes
Yep, which is odd to say the least. Arguably SPAA are having the hardest time. Many either can’t engage ground targets or are at a disadvantage, they’re also dealing with them in very close quarters. While simultaneously having to deal with CAS that arguably also has the advantage against them.
Yet they seem to get less score and so on than the other two groups.
3 Likes
red is reserved for mods. i suggest changing it b4 they notice
1 Like
“hey hey hey don’t you dare to discredit our sKiLlS in bombing tanks! and enough of you tank mains fails to acknowledge our superiority! this is our game! either you play it our way or don’t play at all”
6 Likes
Surprisingly accurate representation. I love how one of them answered to the thread asking why they opposed any change with that “ground players weren’t showing enough respect”. As if they were some higher type of beings.
3 Likes
The second, or im my opinion, the primary and largest issue, is how Radar based SPAA are modelled wrong. They are given SACLOS physics when in reality the SACLOS feature is merely a secondary fallback method. The main method of guidance can be viewed as SARH for simplicity and for in depth read the below given paragraph.
Spoiler
The SPAA Search radar detects azimuth of the Target. The Tracking radar scans in the direction of the provided azimuth from the search radar and locks onto the target.
The missile is launched and the flares on its rear are taken as relative points of reference by an IR sensor on the SPAA. Using the Azimuth, Elevation and the points of reference of the missile with respect to the gunsight/target (depending on which mode), the SPAA’s missile guidance computer calculates the angle of interception for the missile and sends radio signals telling the missile to adjust course.
This process is automatic and DOES NOT require human guidance of the missile. This method of guidance is NOT SACLOS. Officially, it is called either RFCLOS (radio frequency command to line of sight) or just CLOS (command to line of sight) guidance.
Unless Gaijin fixes this, SPAA will forever remain neutered and at a disadvantage against CAS.
4 Likes
You have managed to describe the problem perfectly. And I confirm what you said, as I have also noticed this problem, they act almost like BOTs.
I am Italian main player and with my SPAAs I hunt down planes, I don’t stand around in spawn, I execute cover manoeuvres for allied tanks as they move by flagging enemies, or disabling enemy tanks by hitting them in the tracks and cannon, so as to give my teammate an easy kill, or as I capture the area I give air cover to my team’s tanks so as to prevent a 1000lb bomb from falling on their heads. That’s how you play with SPAAs
2 Likes
Doesn’t matter
Others have already mentioned the issues stopping players from repositioning SPAAs, so I won’t go over those. I’ll just mention a point I haven’t seen mentioned here, which is the massive awareness gap between CAS and SPAAs at high tier (Top to ~10.3ish, when standoff range muntions become common).
CAS has a massive advantage in spotting and identifying threats. Not only do they get very high magnification optics, something which makes scanning for targets pretty easy (Doubly so for those that get thermals), but they also have third person view, giving them perfect spatial awareness of any incoming missiles due to the huge smoke trails. Said smoke trails can then be tracked back to the SPAA that launched it long before said missile ever gets close enough to threaten the plane, after which they can pretty trivially evade the missile and launch an attack against the offending SPAA.
Meanwhile, SPAAs get RADAR. Actually, some get RADAR. Some get a combo of search RADAR and IRST, meaning that while they get tracking indicators they cannot quickly or easily lock on to them. Some don’t even get a search RADAR, making them reliant on the good old Mk 1 eyeball to locate the tiny dots of aircraft at standoff range (Even worse if it’s a drone, which is practically invisible without thermals). And, as already mentioned, you cannot rely on RADAR, as doing so reveals your position to the enemy. Plus the search limits, meaning a plane that climbs high enough won’t appear on any scope except the Pantsir.
You ever wonder why you hear SPAAs doing aircraft pings at high tier? It’s because getting bearing and altitude information is actually more info than you get from the RADAR scopes of all SPAAs, and it’s all that SPAAs like the Type 81 and Strela get.
This is on top of the issue that planes have near infinitely more space to hide in than SPAAs do. As already mentioned above, maps are tiny for the purposes of top tier, and even smaller when it comes to places you can hide defenseless buses like most top tier SAMs. Meanwhile planes can come from practically any angle and altitude they wish for, meaning that while SPAAs have to watch the entire sky in case someone’s trying to flank them, CAS merely has to scan small sections of a tiny map from safety.
Finally, the real nail in the coffin that I’ve not seen mentioned here, that idealized scenario you have in the OP relies on the SPAA player having time after spawning to move into cover, something that’s in no way guaranteed unless you first spawn SPAA. Often times, by the time you’re spawning SPAA there are already CAS aircraft in range to engage you the second you spawn in, and the best way to help them do that is to slowly trundle your way to cover before engaging them. Even if you make it, they now have you pinned in cover and can make a pop up/vertical attack while you hope they get sloppy enough to forget you exist and eat a missile.
It also doesn’t account for multiple aircraft. Admittedly, this is already a lopsided fight, but it’s not an uncommon one, and unlike at low tiers it’s a lot harder to quickly switch targets as they make attack runs on you. The entire time you’re guiding a missile in at one plane, every other plane knows exactly where you are, and you can’t move without throwing off the guidance.
13 Likes
I think to make it more fair for ground vehicles, they should make it that the hit marker cannot be seen by aircraft, that will help the lower tier a lot, for top tier where everything can zoom from planet mars is another story.
Not a bad suggestion, my only worry then would be that CAS pilots, if they were less able to spot targets on their own, would default to the one spot they know they’ll always find target. That being spawn. Dying seconds after spawning is already an extremely annoying occurance, I’d hate to do anything that encourages it.
I’ve got a few idea for top tier that might help:
- A TWS style overlay for search RADAR, allowing players to see visual boxes for each target detected by RADAR, to standin for the far more compreshensive amount of data real SPAAs would get from their RADARs.
- Different RADAR returns for different targets. There’s no way a scout drone, attack drone, helicopter and fully laden attack jet give identical RADAR returns IRL, and it would help players prioritize targets.
- A reduction in the visibility and duration of the smoke trail. Even if ahistorical, it counteracts the ahistorical advantage CAS aircraft have in spotting them due to the third person camera.
- Ground or air based AI RADARs that act as AWACS when called upon by SPAAs (Give bearing and altitude of all targets in their RADAR field), to give SPAA players more spatial awareness.
6 Likes
They also need to fix the “Lock on” range. They reduced Lock on against Helicopters to absurdity, based on the most wonky of claims. This has lead to a situation where Helicopters hilariously outrange many SPAA. Seriously it’s ridiculous that at times helicopters can be right above you and you can’t goddamn get a lock for Stingers.
Couple this with better mobility, being able to look over many obstacles that block line of sight for ground vehicles, better zoom and you get a fairly lopsided match up.
Then there’s the weird fact that a lot of SPAAs have serious issues hitting helicopters. Especially if they lack proxy. When IRL they’ve been shown to fairly regularly hit them both with ballistic weapons and missiles. Gepard 1A2 for example still lack it’s FAPDS ammunition. Which is it’s MAIN/exclusive ammunition instead using a belt it never used.
3 Likes
its not. the smoke trail being so visible is ahistorical, as is SACLOS guidance
2 Likes
Please, I’d love to see you get good positions in small maps in SPAA’s like Pantsir’s or Flaraks.
3 Likes
Bunch of stuff is really weird, ahistorical, and borderline broken. And virtually all of it at the expense of SPAA.
1 Like