The F-5C at 11.0 is completely unfair

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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I compared the F-5C and MiG21 PFM (I don’t own any MiG21) in test flight. Below 250m in level flight and with 50% fuel.

MiG21: Reached Mach 1 in 74 seconds. Top speed Mach 1.07 (1260kmph)
F-5C: Reached Mach 1 in 86 seconds. Top speed Mach 1.01 (1212kmph)

I assume the other Mig21s and the J-7II are not so different. It is clear that the MiGs are faster and have better acceleration. You can also simply compare the engine thrust of these aircraft. MiG21s have > 5000 kgf thrust compared to F-5Cs meagre ~ 2900 kgf.

It’s crazy that these light fighters, a whole 1.0 BR lower than the F-5C (now 1.7) have such a huge advantage of engine power. Yes, they bleed energy quickly, but they can also regain that energy much faster. They can simply dominate the F-5C in vertical fights and boom n zooms.

I haven’t used the R-3S, but from stats, it seems they have a lower top speed (1.7M) than the 9E (2.5M).
Doesn’t seem that much of a disadvantage, especially when both missiles are useless anyway.
As for the cannons, they have powerful cannons with less ammo. Seems like a trade-off rather than a disadvantage.

F-100 and F3H have advantage of missiles (4 9Es, AIM 7C at -1.0 BR). Super Mystere is at 9.0. Su7 is a strike aircraft that can easily dodge 9Es and run away from F-5C.

J35A is removed. Hunter, Harriers, and Yak38s still get better missiles along with other gimmicks, so again, not a huge disadvantage.

I think most of the issues stem from the assumption that every single aircraft will simply engage in a pure 1v1, 2 circle fight with the F-5C and the F-5C will win every single time. in realistic battles, that is simply not the case.

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Is the F-5C unfair against 9.3? Yeah maybe. There were a lot of similar issues due to BR compression.
But is it unfair against 9.7? NO. Because aircraft at 9.7 generally get better missiles if they have poor flight performance compared to F-5C.

The F-5C against 12.0, now that’s unfair.

Another issue is the MiG23ML/MLD at 11.7 while the F-4J/S are at 12.0. The F-4S and F-4J at the same BR is also a big joke.
I think the Mig23s should be at 12.0 if the F-5C is to remain at 11.0.

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This might be a toxic take, but i love seeing premiums getting nerfed to oblivion.

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BR is set depending on the income.
F-5C mostly grind bases. 1 base = 2,5 kills. High income.
F-5E doesn’t grind bases - too slow. Standard income.
Result:
F-5C and F-5E same BR.

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F-4 can grind bases. Mig-23MLD can’t

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Oh you are talking about the plane that could brainlessly out turn everyone of its tier that’s not a J7E (which I think is undertiered and will be raised in BR granted)
Again in this type of scenario I would always recommend you to play more plane than just the US one, and you’d realize how US aircraft are generally overpowered across the board, due to the underperforming players. Just because it WAS the same BR of Mig21MF does not means it was legitimate, F5C @10.3 was an OP plane and if anything this nerf came way too late.

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The GSh-23 also have inferior ballistics - lower velocity and being mounted underbelly means you have to lead a lot more than the 20mm on the F-5C. And while the 23mm does more damage, both guns fire so fast they put down roughly equal amounts of lead downrange (and you get two with more ammo in the F-5C instead of one with less ammo in the MiG-21). As for the 30mm armed MiG’s, the 30mm has good mounting and velocity, but significantly slower fire rate. M39 20mm is still the winner between the two

If you’ve used the AIM-9B, its virtually identical. The R-3S is reverse-engineered from the AIM-9B IRL. And ofc, the B is inferior to the E Sidewinder.

I own a bunch, I’ve flown them a bunch – this is my personal evaluation based on the pre-decompression meta

You could get away with more aggressive face-to-face combat with the F-5C than you could with equivalent BR MiG-21’s (back then, it was MF and SMT). The F-13 (9.3) and SPS-K (used to be 10.0 but now 9.7) are boned if they aren’t already flying faster than the F-5C and running away, they are terrible for any close-in fights due to flight performance. The SPS-K, at least, can carry countermeasures if you remove the gun, and carries better missiles, but it flies same as the PFM. The MiG-21S, on the other hand, has good flight performance that gives it a better chance in a knife-fight, but you can only use (four of) the basic R-3S/R.

MiG-21MF/SMT are the proper equals to the F-5C IMO. What the F-5C has in its performance as a close-in fighter, the MF/SMT has in its missile kit. R-60’s are agile but easy to flare off. MiG-21bis is the equal to the F-5E through this analogy.

Both the F3H and F-100 aren’t able to break Mach at sea level, have piss poor acceleration, and lack CM’s. The F-5C will outrun and outturn both. The AIM-7C’s on the Demon are a meme missile as well - easy to outmaneuver, easy to spoof with chaff if necessary, and the radar gets confused by ground-clutter. I will say that I forgot the S.M. was 9.0, and how fast the Su-7 can be in combat.

Absolutely not, I only draw on my actual experience flying all these aircraft from 9.3-11.0 BR’s for almost two years now. This includes every type of fight you’d normally see in a match. You can check my statcard - this isn’t a KD brag btw, some of my KDs are ugly lmfao. What makes the F-5C so good in a 1v1 also allows it to be very easy to use strategically, you simply get a wider range of targets you can pick off. This is one jet that I’ll say, often due to mistakes by the other side, I’ve won the most 1v2’s with from memory.

What gimmicks?

  • Hunter: The F.6 has SRAAMs that are easily flared, or you can simply outspeed them beyond 1.4 km, they have the shortest range of any missile in game. Beyond that, other variants of the Hunter at 9.3 have AIM-9E (Rhodie FGA.9) or AIM-9B (Swedish J34). Past that, you can both outrun and outturn the Hunter. At least the Swiss Mk.58 can put up a fight thanks to flares + AIM-9J.
  • Harriers: poor flight performance but - for the GR.3, AV-8A, AV-8C - flares + AIM-9G make them competent in a fight. The GR.1 is garbage though, it only has SRAAMs and no flares. None of them can break Mach unless high in the stratosphere.
  • Yak-38: Poor flight performance once again, also cannot break Mach at normal combat altitudes. Flareless, but equipped with four R-60’s, which are easily flared off.

It’s not fair, but the previous meta was more unfair to the 9.3’s. And I love my 9.3’s, I play them all as much as my other jets I have in higher and lower BR’s. Again, I’ve flown the F-5C a lot as well, which is why I know it can handle itself at that tier better than most these 9.3’s could against it.

Now, I will say that its unreasonable that F-5C = F-5E in BR, the E is just better in flight performance and weapons, the F-5E was a very easy stock grind for me when it was 10.7. Absolutely no justification for that.

And yes, put the MiG-23ML/MLA/MLD at 12.0, they should be equal to the F-4J, and in the previous meta, those MiG’s were already a full uptier for the F-5C (10.3 vs 11.3). Its an agreed upon fact that the BR’s are not optimal rn could be adjusted a bit further, and max cap could go even higher, but I’m glad it at least got an increase to 13.7.

Player efficiency and statistics to me seems to indicate (based on its stated role of being a fighter) that K/D plays a bigger part than just rewards earned

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No.

Have you ever tried base bombing in the F-5C? By the time you somehow linger close to a base, which takes like 10 minutes, you will be lucky to find one base remaining.

Big NO

F-5E is faster than F-5C. It can bomb bases the same way F-5C does. It also has access to mavericks.
But none of them are meant to bomb bases and BR has nothing to do bombing bases or not.

There is a separate BR for mixed battles, so I don’t think ground ordinance should have effect on Air RB BR.

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Mig23 is also pretty much a brick at this point, I can’t see a reason you’d be killed by it, unless you are in the zone of R24Rs. In a dogfight you are never expected to lose to a mig23 in F5C, so idk what is wrong about that.

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No. It’s not.
Average K/D of F-5C is less than 0.5
Only income. Gaijin use K/D, winrate only after community cry.
You have to grind, win or lose doesn’t matter.
Do you remember when a Russian blogger collected up-to-date statistics and the USA had 27% of wins?
Only after resonance did the snail reduce Abrams’ reload time to 5 seconds

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I don’t remember, could you link please? I didn’t know this

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/s/UpNf3c3vO0

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Basically Abrams got 5s reload unreasonably, where as leclerc and challenger still exist there.
Leclerc as of right now is worse that Abrams in every perspective
Challengers have special design for it’s ammo rack (A ready rack that’s right by the side of the loader) so that the first 3 shots can be loaded faster than the common layout of western MBT, yet now it’s the same reload rate of Abrams.
Leopards literally have the same ammo layout of M1, yet it got 6s reload,
Ariete is a piece of garbage and is crying for help, yet, 6s reload.

But Abrams which was an Okey MBT, got the 5s reload, because US players are generally so bad and the stats are horrible. This applies not just for the GRB, but ARB as well. Just like the Abrams, a ton of US planes are undertiered because the stats are not beautiful, but that does not means they are suppose to stay where they are, the vehicle itself such as the F5C back in 10.3 is still OP and need to be raised, no matter how players perform.

Edit: The take away is, don’t take an OP vehicle for granted.

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With tanks, I remember Gaijin stating openly that reloading rates for tanks with a human loader are changed for balance primarily rather than realism. And as for average F-5C player, we all know very well the stereotype of level 16 Timmy getting the F-5C for Christmas and just flying it as a bomb drone…

No surprise if the same thing was happening for both cases

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Yeah the pain truly comes when someone that actually knows what they are doing flies an F5C. In little Timmy’s hand it’s yet still okey, but when someone who’s actually good wanna exploit those undertiered jets like the F5C, F5E or F8s, they could just annihilate the entire match.

Edit: I am a French main and it’s god darn painful to see any F5 in my mirage 3, can’t win and can’t run.

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I mentioned it in one of my blocks of text that the F-5E was ridiculously easy to grind for me - from stock to (nearly) spaded I have a 3-1 K/D (65-21) with it, 59% WR. This basically doesn’t happen on most other jets I’ve ever flown, usually the stock grind is kind of painful and you have a 1:1 or 2:1 at best K/D before unlocking the proper upgrades

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He can’t use it as a bomber anymore. It’s too slow.
Hordes of “stock-grinding” F-4S, kanards, F-111, F-104G, S, mirage F1……are way faster

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Even an A-5C can pull much more AoA than the F-5C. I don’t know what you’re talking about. The F-5C can’t out turn sh*t.

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First up, A5C is pretty much Mig19 plus. Indeed it’s vert maneuverable but noted that it’s not agile at all. The roll rate is a disaster which made it very hard to follow up with the pace of rapid course change. It also suffers severe aileron lockage on high speed (can’t even pull 6g when at around mach 0.95+), which means in order to dogfight it has to slow down first.
The F5C might not be winning a rate fight against A5s, but it’s pretty much better in every single perspective. I really don’t wanna bring this out but it’s pretty much skill issue if you would lose to A5 every time. Or maybe, they just win you occasionally because there’s a good pilot in the cockpit, and you’d still win against it 90% of the time.

Planes all have perks and cons, you can’t compare the best of A5 while ignoring the rest of it. It’s like trying to dogfight an A6M5 with a Yak3 and lost, you can’t conclude Yak 3 is brick just because it wouldn’t out turn a zero.

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Exactly my point. The F-5C gets good performance but horrible armament kit. So why does the MF and SMT go to 10.7 and the F-5C goes to 11.0?

Do you think MF and SMT were not OP against 9.3? As you stated yourself, most 9.3 don’t have flares. Tell me how it feels to dodge a 30G missile? Even the short range is an advantage because the enemy has so little time to react.
The lack of flares is a much more serious issue against an opponent that has better missiles rather than better flight performance.

I too have flown the F-5C/E for about 2 years. Admittedly, I have poor aim and a small screen. But what I find limiting the F-5C is its speed and the fact that you have to actively force a rate fight in order to win, and also be lucky enough not to be interrupted.
I would love to see some footage of you playing the F-5C, if you have published it somewhere.