I wouldn’t say that the armour is better, just because of the very weak armour on the corners of the hull.
If people are concerned about the black prince being OP at a lower BR, just remove it’s APDS if needed. I also doubt that it would be OP at 5.7, just because of how insanely slow it is.
Top speed isn’t mobility.
Mobility is acceleration in forward, reverse, and traverse with a loose tie to top speed.
This is why Porsche Tiger has more mobility than Black Prince, and Tiger 1s have even more mobility than Porsche Tiger.
Also portions of the Porsche Tiger’s front are only ~150mm thick effectiveness.
Just over half of its hull front plate is 206mm thick.
Edit:
Porsche Tiger:
160mm of pen.9.6 base reload.
150 - 200mm of hull armor, ~150mm - 200mm turret armor.
Mobility: 0 - 19kph: 3 seconds [12 to stop speed] forward, 4 seconds reverse [13 to top speed].
Traverse 360: 35 seconds.
Top speed: 31kph both.
Tiger 1:
160mm of pen. 9.6 base reload.
100mm of hull armor, 130mm - 200mm turret armor.
Mobility: 0 - 19kph: 3 seconds [11 to 31kph]. 0 - top speed reverse: 2 seconds.
Traverse 360: 28 seconds.
Top speed: 40kph, 7 reverse.
Black Prince:
260mm of pen. 7.1 base reload.
152mm armor, 152 - 230mm turret armor.
Mobility: 0 - top speed: 6 seconds forward, 1 second reverse.
Traverse 360: 22 seconds.
Top speed: 18kph, 7.3 reverse.
More to be added later.
KV-220:
130mm of pen. 9.6 base reload.
120mm of hull armor, 100mm turret armor.
Mobility: 0 - 19kph: 2 seconds [9 to top speed], 1 second to reverse.
Traverse: 12 seconds.
Top speed: 34kph, 6.2 reverse.
Clearly the most mobile out of the 4 listed above, which makes up for the lower performing gun and similar armor.
IS-1, best mobility of the heavy tanks listed, slightly more pen, 37kph top speed fwd.
No testing required for this one.
T1E1 90mm:
180mm of pen. 9.8 base reload.
90 - 100mm of hull armor, 90 - 105mm turret armor.
Mobility: 0 - 19kph: 3 seconds [13 to top] both.
Traverse 360: 32 seconds.
Top speed: 37kph both.
Black Prince trades top speed and mobility based on armor thickness and penetration advantage over other heavy tanks.
There are of course heavy tanks less mobile than Black Prince elsewhere: Maus, TOG 2, Char 2, Churchills… however none of those are comparable to Black Prince due to either being significantly superior [Maus] or significantly inferior [the rest] in all other aspects.
Top speed isn’t mobility
It definitely is mobility when you take into consideration the fact that the Black Prince can only go up to 18 km/h which is incredibly subpar and probably the worst in the ENTIRE game excluding other Churchills of course. The vehicle is incredibly underpowered and the severely underperforming transmission doesn’t make life any better.
You want to balance vehicles by KDR, sheer penetration and mobility whilst I want to balance vehicles with EVERYTHING in mind, we’re not the same - lets also not forget about how god awful the turret of the Black Prince is, if something can’t penetrate your hull then it’ll for sure penetrate your turret.
@TPS_Hydra
I oppose balancing based on KDR and always have.
I’ll keep supporting balancing vehicles based on cross analysis looking at everything, as I’ve always supported in War Thunder.
Black Prince turret is thicker than the hull, and the Black Prince turret is thicker than all other heavy tanks at its BR.
Black Prince turret is thicker than the hull, and the Black Prince turret is thicker than all other heavy tanks at its BR
Most vehicles at 6.0 can penetrate at least 160mm of armour, the roof of the Black Prince is a easy one shot and angling the turret is significantly more tricky due to the weird design of it when compared to the hull - hence why I said the turret is mediocre.
I’ve never tanked a shot on the turret so far but have bounced and tanked many shots on the hull.
I oppose balancing based on KDR and always have. Don’t project your desires onto others
My desires is everyone’s desires, everyone so far who has spoken here has showed support for balancing the Black Prince whether it’s one way or another, most have came to the consensus that the Black Prince is at the very least struggling and needs to be buffed in some way.
No way it should drop down to 5.7. Huge majority of tanks could not scratch the paint at that BR.
Way better armor than Tiger 1 and much better pen.
Should stay at 6.0
No way it should drop down to 5.7. Huge majority of tanks could not scratch the paint at that BR
The Churchill VII (4.7 vehicle) and Black Prince both share very similar armour profile, furthermore the VII debatably has better overall armour thanks to the more conventional turret which is significantly easier to angle. The Black Prince does have “decent” armour at 6.0 but it has amongst the worst mobility in the ENTIRE game.
Way better armor than Tiger 1 and much better pen
The Black Prince has significantly worse post-penetration, similar reload for worse damage output, don’t compare the German 88 to the British 17 Pounder lol.
Being red pilled doesn’t make you cool
nah bro who revived this thread.
ITS FINE AT 6.0 IF YOU THINK NOT ITS A LITERAL SKILL ISSUE
Im just gonna hijack this thread for just a second, i think another option for this is to add the Planned Churchill MkVII with the Vickers 75mm HV gun, At around 5.3
The HV Vickers 75 was developed mid war, and was planned to be mounted on the Churchills. But the project was put on hold due to the decreased HE filler that came with the gun. The higher velocity of the HV gun caused problems with the original British 75mm HE rounds, there were multiple incidents of them bursting in the barrel.
LATER the gun was reworked, and rebored into the 76.2mm “77mm” HV gun on the Comet so that it could use the 17 pounders projectiles (Whereas the original 75 version used the same M61/72 shot, just at Higher velocities)
Interesting fact about the gun actually, during testing they for fun threw a American 57mm APHE round, in a Sabot (Like the Maus with its 88mm APHE) And achieved performance just shy of the American M1 76mm gun.
“decent armor” at 6.0 is an understatement.
The Black Prince has amazing side armor which means it can angle the hull, providing even MORE frontal armor as needed. This allows the BP to survive long enough to put multiple shots into enemies, crippling them quickly with it’s fast reload, and then ultimately killing them.
It’s not meant to be mobile. That’s the point of the armor. It’s a moving pillbox. If that’s not your thing, switch to another tank. Lowering it’s BR will not make it faster.
Which “2.7s” are you referring to?
The Archer?
Does not fire APDS. AvisWisla mentioned APDS, so now you are comparing apples to oranges.
only the bottom third of the turret that has an added 50mm of armour is stronger, the rest of the turret is actually a bit weaker than the hull due to it being cast
Retribution for British tanks having to fight Tigers at 4.7
Because, and im ENTIRELY Serious here, i think the British need a Second Heavy tank to back up the TOG at 5.3, and the MKVII Churchill doesn’t do it
I think we should either get the Churchill AVRE (165) or the Planned Vickers HV armed Churchill.
Which should i think get the option of using the 57mm APHEDS, or M61 APCBC (with its filler still intact, as that is how the gun was tested)
With the 57mm APHEDS it would have around 135mm of Penetration, Or around 120-125mm with the M61 shot.
Tog doesnt really need much help. But more heavies are always nice to see.
