The Big Question: Where To Draw The Line?

As we are all aware, firearms are significantly more nuanced than armored fighting vehicles in terms of availability. Not only are firearms manufactured for military use, they see extensive usage by various law enforcement, militias, as well as civilians for self defense and even some simple dumb fun.

Since the mode is in its very early stages of infancy, Gaijin hasn’t yet set fourth any specific guidelines for what constitutes a valid addition, we are in the wildest of wests this game has seen for a long time.

Before we truly begin, let’s get one thing straight: In a game sense, there is very little, IF ANY, difference between the effectiveness of a military firearm VS a civilian firearm. War Thunder just isn’t the game that implements the majority of things that separate them. Any bargain bin Walmart big game hunting rifle with a 10x can put down a marine just as well as an M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System for the very obvious reason that humans, unlike tanks, are still the same flesh and bone as we were 600+ years ago. Sure, we can pile on all sorts of armor onto ourselves to increase the chance of survival but none that matters when you’re in the same room as a madman with a sawed off double barrel shotgun who’ll proceed to blow your top smoov off. On top of this, from what I’ve seen, a large portion of infantry gameplay takes place at moderate ranges, where tap firing is the dominant strategy. This means that (FOR NOW), in a large number of in-game situations, not even the being locked to semi-auto would hugely detract from a civilian firearm’s in-game performance.

The point is: Since War Thunder doesn’t take into account things like practicality and reliability, there is very little separating a military firearm and a civilian firearm in terms of in-game performance. Meaning that Gaijin (and us) need to draw the line manually.

For the purposes of simplicity, I’ve identified a number broad categories and a few sub-categories for firearms to fall into. The question is: Where do you draw the line? Additionally, where do you think Gaijin will draw the line?

Military service weapons

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The simplest of all categories. These are weapons that serve or served with militaries, extensively or not. This category contains your M16s, AKs, FALs, etc. Their additions are easy to justify and wouldn’t be out of place. Subcategories for this category are captured weapons and OPFOR weapons.

Similar to many captured AFVs, captured firearms played very important roles for many militaries. They would see emergency service among frontline troops, arm less equipped backline units with something that shoots, and provide valuable lessons for developing militaries. For example, France made very good use of the German StG-44 all the way into Indochina. During WW2, Germany would adopt the Soviet PPSh-41 en mass. Captured examples would receive the designation MP-717(r) and examples domestically converted to fire 9mm would be designated as MP-41(r). With Gaijin’s current treatment of captured vehicles, it would not be surprising to see captured firearms spring up as premiums or event rewards.

Similarly to armored vehicles, many militaries maintain an arsenal of foreign weaponry for use in OPFOR exercises. For example, the US military has several AKs, RPKs, and Dragunovs in their possession to make OPFOR exercises feel more realistic. Semi-recently, Gaijin has begun to dip their toes into OPFOR equipment, though it has been limited to VISMODs for now. These firearms could provide familiar premium or event rewards to nations who might not have too much to spare.

Military prototype weapons

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Relatively self explanatory. These weapons are the first results of official military programs, contracts, or competitions. They were made specifically at the request of the military. This category includes weapons from both successful and failed projects. For example, the M16 went through a few preproduction prototypes before being accepted into service. These prototypes of a successful rifle could be useful as premium or event weapons. On the other end of the spectrum, we have things like the XM25 CTDE, a failed impractical bullpup grenade launcher. Any weapon within this category is easily justifiable as an addition.

Weapons evaluated by militaries

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These are weapons that have been evaluated by militaries but, for one reason or another, were rejected. Unlike armored fighting vehicles, it is significantly easier for militaries to evaluate firearms, leading to a huge number of weapons being evaluated but not adopted, the Pancor Jackhammer being a famous example. This also means that there’s a significantly higher amount of national overlap with firearms compared to AFVs. For example, the US trialed the FN FAL under the designation T48 but ultimately declined it in favor of what would become the M14.

There’s also, what I assume will be, a controversial subcategory here. Weapons used by militaries during multinational military exercises. It is common practice during multinational military exercises for military personnel to train on each other’s weapons. For example, Germany never adopted the M16 but German military personnel have fired M16s on numerous occasions during the aforementioned exercises, even earning US Weapons Qualification Badges.

Weapons resulting from private ventures and marketed to militaries

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These are weapons are the result of private ventures designed purely with the intent of seeing adoption into military use. They were not built specifically to fit the requirements of any specific military contract or competition. Instead, they are generally made based on assumptions of what the company THINKS a military could need. For example, the Empty Shell XM556 Microgun is a minigun chambered in 5.56mm. It was designed as a scaled down alternative to the M134 and can be fitted to many standard M134 mounts. It is also easily capable of being carried and fired by hand. The “XM” designation is purely for marketing. The weapon isn’t under consideration by the US military nor was it ever evaluated by them. Nevertheless, the intention for it is clear. Civilians can’t own it and no military has trialed it. The XM556 and many weapons like it are stuck in this strange limbo. It would be a shame to completely wall them off from addition since many of them are interesting (though impractical) and could provide vastly different playstyles to break up the standard shooter gameplay.

Law enforcement weapons

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Despite how it may first seem, this is actually a pretty vast category that encompasses more than just simple police firearms. State Trooper, Military Police, SWAT, FBI, Secret Service, and arguably even Game Warden firearms fall into this category as well. The pool of firearms here is vast. For example, the US Federal Bureau of Prisons, as of 2012, uses the KelTec KSG. Texas Game Wardens carry Daniel Defense semi-automatic .223 M4s. The FBI uses the H-S Precision Pro 2000 HTR. There’s really no end as standard issue weapons varies by state, province, job, country, etc.

Weapons used by official civilian militias

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Several times throughout history, civilians have had to band together with the military to defend their homeland. Sometimes, in times of true crisis, these militias temporarily became an official extension of the military. For example, the WW2 era British Home Guard was a civilian militia group that was considered to be part of the British military. Since most military firearms were going to soldiers, these civilians had to make due with what they had. They would use surplus lend-lease weapons alongside shotguns and sporting rifles donated by groups like the American Committee for the Defence of British Homes. These donated weapons consisted of anything from .22LR plinkers to Winchester 1894 leaver actions and Springfield 1873 trapdoor rifles. Should this category of weapons be considered valid, many nations would gain access to many interesting and unique weapons that could otherwise be seen as invalid.

Additionally, there’s an argument to be made for a pseudo-subcategory here. Several US states have what is called a State Defence Force or SDF. These groups are a step above an official militia as every member of an SDF is legally considered to be a proper military service member that takes a military oath. What sets them apart from something like the National Guard is that an SDF is strictly under the command of the state government and CANNOT be federalized. I call SDFs a pseudo-category because they are generally unarmed and function largely as disaster relief and civil support. Only a few SDFs are authorized by the state to carry firearms in support of state missions and the firearms they do carry generally don’t differ from standard US military equipment or provide weapons that can’t be found in other categories.

Weapons made for and marketed to civilians

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This is where we get to the real forbidden fruit. The vast majority of firearms (over 80%) are made, at least in part, for civilian usage. From self defense to stupid fun, civilian firearm variety is the most extensive category by far. Obviously, this category should be generally off limits, at least for the first few years of the gamemode’s life.

Nevertheless, within this forbidden realm, there are reasonable firearms and unreasonable firearms.

Reasonable firearms are things like standard sporting and hunting rifles. Practical firearms made for a practical purpose. Browning X-Bolt, Beretta A400 Xtreme Plus, and insert literally any civilian AR-15 are all examples of reasonable firearms.

Unreasonable firearms are the gimmicky things. Firearms made purely for fun or to look stupid. They don’t serve practical purposes naturally. The Second Century Double Barrel 1911, KelTec P-50, and the Rossi 12 shotgun pistol are examples of unreasonable firearms. While these weapons would be super fun to use, they would ultimately be too far removed from the core identity of the game.

Now, of course, I am not advocating for the addition of civilian firearms to this military game unless absolutely 100% necessary. I think such weapons should only be considered if the main nation and any sub-nations (potential or otherwise) completely lack a weapon to fill a specific slot. For example, if Japan needed a bolt action rifle at X BR but neither Japan nor any of its sub-nations, for whatever reason, had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING all the way down until the civilian category THEN I think it would be reasonable for Gaijin to considered civilian options like the Howa Mini Action or whatever.

The purpose of this post is to start a discussion. Where do you think the line should be drawn? Should the line be move after a few years? Should specific categories be reserved specifically for special circumstances? I’d like to hear all opinions from reasonable to radical.

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I doubt civilian arms would eveer come into play. Unlike tanks and planes, which are very expensive and complex to both produce and import, every major nation in war thunder has an army equipped with everything we’d need in game.
The bigger question is if mass copy paste will be avoided when half the world is using the FN Minimi as their SAW (the in game countries who don’t are only Germany, Russia, China, and Israel)

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Agreed. I just think that it would be a very useful card to have in you back pocket just in case the near impossible comes to pass. For the purpose of the post, the category was just for completion’s sake.

Also, I’m just going to come out and say it: I think getting up in arms about copypaste firearms is the dumbest thing ever. With vehicles, while I still think it’s dumb, I can at least see where they’re coming from. Seeing your own tank on the enemy team over and over isn’t cool to some people and it comes off as lazy.

When it comes to firearms, however, it literally doesn’t matter. You are not going to see the weapon of the person you’re killing or the guy killing you. It doesn’t make any difference. Hell, I bet if Gaijin removed any mention of what weapon killed you, players would just assume it was an AK or an M4 or whatever. The vast majority of shooters already make every firearm available to every side through either shared loadouts or a pickup mechanic. I really don’t think Gaijin is going to care if everyone and their mother has access to an AR-15 platform rifle. In fact, I think people might actively end up asking for it. I think the people who play War Thunder for infantry will be fundamentally different players than those who play for other modes.

I think the biggest barrier prevemtong civilian forearms from being added is ammo. Military weapons have standardized ammo with documents outlining their capabilities. Civilian firearms dont have a standard ammo and would lead to endless arguments on the forums about how a weapon could be buffed/nerfed if it was shooting a different type of ammo in game.

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The only weapon I want in infantry mode is the Davy Crockett.

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True. If civilian firearms were to ever be added for whatever reason, it should be restricteded to calibers used by militaries.

It is a nuke gun so I think it should work like the nuke plane in GRB

The humble FAL:

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Premium T48 for US when

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Imo as long as it is something that was used in service in some form by a given military or was tested as a prototype than its free game to be added.

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500 AKs

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combined arm slop is DOA for me

G11 to be added as premium for German forces.

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Should be tech tree for Germany since the K2 variant was actually certified for production and premium for the US since a variant of it was made for the US ACR program.

ACR, SPIW, and OICW would lead to some absolutely crazy premiums

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I would say absolutely NO to prototypes and civilian firearms.

I wonder how progression would look like, I’m sure I won’t be as hyped as I’m for vehicles of all kind.
Grinding 400k RP for some M249 or slightly different M4A1 version is out of option.

Overall the issue being Gaijin is going to have to pick and choose what rifles they want in game (They can always flood the BP with sub versions of the M16 or AK-47) Civil rifles will be harder as they do find there way into the army / police force. (special forces do what they want to do)

One civil rife I would be okay with just because it would make a funny Battle Pass is the Boy Scout Rifle Remington 4-S

Boy scouts of America was basically a training front for the Army. A single shot rifle would be fun because the Youtubers would make challenges of dragging this poor rifle to top tier and trying to see how many victories they can get with it.

I am fine with evaluated weapons as it can fill GE / BP weapons without losing a interesting domestic weapon to it. Same with prototypes there fun to see can be in the main tree or GE though I pray few fall victim to the BP.

Police and special organizations (CIA, FBI, FSB, KGB, NIB, .etc.)

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Who could say no to KGB escort briefcase?

But otherwise there are a lot of Special modified pistols and sniper rifles used by police and general support vehicles. Japan post ww2 tried to keep all police weapons domestic so there are a few interesting pistols and stuff. Police weapons also prioritize controllability over raw fire power so some players may fall in love with lower recoil weapon that can get the job done. Like with the New Nambu M60 or M57.

But you forgot the worse one of them all Captured Weapons @DMYEugen! (in its own thing people hate captured vehicles) My thinking is no on random USA guy with random gun they found in photo unless there is some really interesting story with it. If there was some official use for example Germany had a whole system around captured small arms and Western armies in WW2 (USA) would provide scouts and forward observers with captured rifles as a way to blend in best example is the Japanese Type 97 sniper rifle. During Vietnam war this would happen in Cambodia with CIA squads using AK47s to blend in as they where not supposed to be there if a USA rifle cartridge was found a incident could happen. Japan in WW2 would have similar system to Germany but less well done also captured weapons from previous wars fought by Japan would be reactivated for the so called final battle.

MP-41r (former PPSh)

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There is also the whole thing of ceremonial / personal weapons there still sometimes usable so who knows

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George S. Patton’s pistols (surprised these where never in fallout)

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Pls Gaijin if we get Korea chrome weapons

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Also countries - Bro this gun our enemy has is good please copy it.

goes builds the T24 machine gun

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The Weapon In Question

FYI the T24 machine gun had issues like a lot one of the prototypes just never worked. One issue being the USA saw its fire rate as overkill and there own MG was good enough. So project was not very well funded. Could be added though I doubt it would jam as much as it did in real life though maybe gaijin should not be that realistic.

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Captured weapons were covered as a sub-category in the “Military Service Weapons” category.

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I meant more in there own thing. People hate them (I dont) like in WW2 official use of captured German vehicles happened and there in the tree as a GE vehicle like the soviet panther.

I would have put them in 2 different areas but there fine.

In service local → domestic design or construction (ideal in service people okay with that) ✅
In service import → bought no local production ✅
Captured service → France found box of German weapons and used them ✅
Special Captured → squad found AK47 and used them in Vietnam or black ops stuff ✅
Trophy → random gun found taken as trophy (I don’t like is a bit much) ❌

But otherwise very good post +1

Civil militia forces are going to be touchy for Gaijin but hunting rifles have been popular with groups to fill out there equipment roster. There where a few Vietnamese snipers part of Vietcong that where effective using what was considered a modified civil hunting rifle. Also Special Forces tend to use strange stuff at times the most modern Gun with 50 things bolted to it is sometimes not ideal. Basic rifle civilish is sometimes better.

Gaijin not going to lie will have there work cut out for them.

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