The missile requires certain amounts of energy to bring the warhead to a lethal miss distance to a target. That’s going to effect the amount of damage done to a target and thus the pK.
Since the weapon has the same damage within the same miss distance, the effective range is dictated more so by the ability of the missile to track the target than to reach it as often times they aren’t even launched at the maximum effective range. You don’t often see that terminology being used anyway as the best launch range is within the NEZ (although I guess you could refer to the NEZ region as the “most effective launch range” in a broad sense).
You misread that, intentionally or not… yes. No one uses “maximum effective range” in missiles, rather the maximum kinematic range is used for comparison. The reason this is done is because it shows the missiles overall energy capacity and how far out it can reach. Being able to touch the enemy from further than they can touch you is an important advantage.
This is all getting vaguely away from the topic again, we need to police ourselves up a bit and ensure it doesn’t deviate too far from the subject of fox-3’s if we are to continue the discussion this direction.
I was joking at first, because you are muddying the truth for Foxxo. But you are starting to make me think you believe the Airforce does not determine maximum effective range of their weapon systems.
Every ballistic weapon system has a maximum range and max effective range. Rifle rounds, cannons and missiles. Missiles do not fly optimal at all speeds either just as kinetic projectiles. You may think a missile has sufficient energy does not mean it does. Some have very strict optimal flight windows.
Maximum effective ranges are never published in open source. That is why Foxxo never heard the term.
Not only ballistics are a factor, but in the case of active missiles the AMRAAM must need host radar support all the way until it goes active in the terminal. Many do not consider the AMRAAM a true active missile. Just an evolution of the sparrow. Which it is. The poorer quality and range of the host aircraft’s radar… The shorter and poorer the accuracy of the AMRAAM. Lowering its maximum effective range.
Stop, are you intentionally muddying the water. Unless you really think the Airforce does not determine maximum effective range at different altitudes?
Yes, and when the AMRAAM goes active at max range it has already burned its motor out and is now using pure ballistics. Any maneuvering will hinder its range. The farther the launch was, the shorter it effective range. That is why they determine a max effective range. No Hail Mary’s & you already knew all of this.
Again, max effective range is also dependent on other factors such as the host aircraft’s radar quality, detection range and its link to the AMRAAM.
What other maximum range are you talking of, then?
I’ve never heard of it in the sense that you’re attempting to use it in.
Because it’s a an attribute that’s nearly impossible to subjectivize? The smallest change in a variable can drastically change the findings of any test or equation, and calculating the maximum range of any missile is already trouble enough.
What?
So we’re talking about the same thing, then? There’s a long list of things, involving air density, any maneuvering action, slant range from target, speed when deployed, maximum speed, parasitic drag, thrust / time of primary stage and sustainment, and so on.
The effective range, then, is only as far as it can sustain its speed. Any loss of thrust or continuous decrease in speed will kill a missile, and that’s the difference between an R-37M reaching 230km or barely making it to 150km.
Why would I? Between its phases of flight and attributes of those phases, its range and speed reflect heavily on the ratio between the range fired and the engagement of its terminal phase. The range of the aircraft firing isn’t in question when you’re dictating a missile’s ranged performance.
Yeah, no shit. You’ve only said that 4 times now.
Yes, why wouldn’t I? Have you not read anything I’ve said?
Alright, I guess I don’t. Thanks?
Woah, really? A jet can fly to it’s maximum range? Who would have thunk.
My point is that it can’t fly out to it’s maximum range and fulfill any engagement. Its combat range relies heavily on the time it has to locate and engage enemies. Again, aircraft range has nothing to do with this topic
Nice straw man, though.
What “open source garbage”? I assume you may be reading straight from Raytheon’s trials statistics of the D-3, right?
He said, in a simplified manner to get through your thick skull, that the maximum effective range is based on the effectiveness of the weapon.
If your probability of kill drops, Would your effective range increase?
The AMMRAM can be launched and find enemies, choosing which to prioritize. It can literally do everything in your quote.
I am done. You pinged me about a military terminology you never heard before. You do not like what you learned. Take it or leave it. Makes no difference to me.
The AMRAAM can be maddog-ed, if that’s what you mean. Though it won’t “choose which to prioritize”, nor can it differentiate or even transmit frequencies for IFF.
I’ve heard quite a bit of it, but it’s not my fault that an ignoramus is trying to preach it. Reading through this 600+ message thread, all you’ve been throwing around are ad hominems and straw men with little to no substantiation, then gloating over a perceived “win” when you’ve successfully bullshitted the opposition into confusion.
You asked me what a term was, and I, being 7 years in the AFRL, as well as MiG-23M, someone who doesn’t seem to have even an infinitesimal fraction of the amount of flagged posts as you, have both called out your bullshit.
You’ve thrown around definitions, of which we’ve given their purposes, and all you’ve done is “nuh uh” it and go on a schizophrenic tangent on why we don’t know what the definition is (It’s apparent you either read it and ignored it, or blatantly skipped over it just to justify why YOUR explanation is more valid).
I don’t think it’s a serious consideration. The maximum effective range of the weapon system is likely within the NEZ, no real need to go further into detail than that. Air to air combat is far too complex with far too many variables to label a hard “maximum effective range” or you’d basically just be saying anywhere from min range to the end of the no escape zone.
You’re repeating some of what I said I’m not sure what the issue is here. Unless that single part you quoted was all you read… which in that case makes sense. Don’t get stuck on “maximum effective range” because it means effectively nothing to us.
Please stop replying to him on the post, it’s not an honest discussion on his part to begin with. Just another needless play on semantics for the sake of increasing the reply count in the thread… without any furthering of meaningful discussion.
Or you can do other things healthier with your time other than long for my attention… I get home at 5pm PST weekdays though. I cannot promise you anything ok?
I don’t quite see how he’s muddying it, we’re essentially wrestling in a swamp.
Can you tell me what he said that was wrong, though? I’m not too sure of what specifically you’re talking about.
I mean… Yeah. 5.56x45 is capable of shooting far past 1km, but by no means will it have the energy to do damage.
Same goes for missiles, although instead of damage there’s responsiveness in maneuvers, as well as general speed.
I’m not working off of open source information. All that I’ve stated is that maximum effective range is rarely applicable in topics such as this, as it’s entirely based upon arbitrary variables. A simple 15-20dg turn can drastically change the outcome of a launch, from both the host aircraft or the target.
The AMRAAM is able to operate without a host radar, though it must be configured to do so first. It’s rarely used, though, as it is very likely to hit an unintended target. Everybody considers it an ARH missile. Whether or not it is an “evolution of the sparrow”, it is an entirely different base with little to no similarities to it, other than purpose and general attributes due to development lineage. This is much like saying the R-37 isn’t an ARH missile because it replaced the R-33.
The AMRAAM is by no means dependent on the host’s radar for range, and accuracy has no relation due to its terminal phase. Unless you mean accuracy by range over DS/DL, in which it still wouldn’t matter.
No, they don’t. There is little to no need to, as again, there are too many variables to account for. Everything needed to know is computed and displayed through the DLZ. This is catalogued to a very limited degree.
