Uptiers are not so bad when you know that the maximum is 4, when all might not be in said vehicle , counterable by your own teams top BR and usually some lower (TDs, High Pen guns, planes).
Defeatism is half the battle. So when you get the full uptier and continue to score, even topping the board, the question is it the player or the uptier?
I completely subscribe to this statement, as you know, I myself make it on a daily basis. But not all BRs are created equal. Before the summer BR changes, 6.7 suffered from insane compression: even with the 4 player limit in mind, a 7.3 game would make most of the then-German 6.7 lineup seriously out of place, and in a full uptier to 7.7, the LeK and JPz 4-5 (both 6.3 vehicles at the time!) were basically the only vehicles worth spawning in.
The summer decompression helped a ton in making 7.3 competitive for the 6.7 lineup, and 7.7 at least playable. This was essential, because in my experience playing 6.7, the BR you will play the most at is 7.3, followed by 7.7. The two lower tier options, 7.0 and 6.7, are a very distant third and fourth (this is in contrast with my experience playing 7.7, where one match out of four basically was a full downtier). So if your vehicles get powercrept at 7.3 already, you’re in for a pretty frustrating time.
The issue imho arose from three things: the original state of BR compression (which has partially been ameliorated); the fact that the 6.7 lineup is very one dimensional, there’s no mediums and only a couple light vehicles, everything else is heavy and slow; and it sits at a junction between two eras that makes armour even more situational than usual.
However, this BR range also suffers from a powercreep problem that is entirely independent of uptiers and downtiers. There is an ever increasing amount of cold war SPGs and HEAT vehicles with low reload that hard-counter armour, at every BR from 6.0 all the way up, to the point that the normal logics you would use elsewhere (heavies great in downtier, bad in uptier) are much less applicable.
Something like the JT for example still usually ends up having good survivability most of the time because of the roomy interior and 6 crew, but the KTs, with ammo in the turret and a more cramped layout, basically always play as mediums at this point.
Now look at the Tiger II P in this context. Its turret weakspot is vulnerable to WW2 guns as well, not just postwar, so it’s much less survivable than the production variants (or even the Jagdpanthers) in all situations and BRs you can encounter. It’s also slower than all those options. So, why on earth would you ever spawn it? You don’t just have better options at 6.7, but even at 6.3.
I think the Tiger II P is the sort of tank that would only really find its place in a much more decompressed environment. It shouldn’t bully 5.3s, or even some current 5.7s, but it’s completely out of place against most of the likely enemies it will meet now.
Just my personal view of things, anyway.
Like Motorola was saying, the end WW2/early Cold War BR range is basically beyond saving at this point. It’s such a clusterfuck of vehicles and power creep that even global 0.3 BR decompression wouldn’t really alter its character. I’ve made my peace with it because I know I’ll keep playing it out of sheer obsessive interest, but I honestly would recommend the average player to either stay lower or move on to higher BRs, if I have to be honest.
I dont see one reason why not.
Historically it is correct.
Not at the very beginning of the game Tigers II,Panthers faced to T-10M and for a long time.
That was a mess. Where is (BR) T-10M now?
Did you try fight with Tiger II versus T-10M ?
I guarantee you will enjoy it because I did.
That’s not really relevant to WT though.
As always, I’m on board with more decompression, rather than sending vehicles up and down all the time.
Yeah,it’s pity because should be and until it isnt they will be still keep moving the tanks up and down.
This is wrong entirely. CL13B Mk6 came into the game in patch 1.87 and was 9.3 on release. After a while it went to 9.7 and then stayed there until it came back down to 9.3.
It’s not just the 3 or 4 people at the highest BR in the lobby, it’s EVERYTHING on the whole field that goes up in an uptier. Every single vehicle you face in a +1.0 uptier is on average 0.3 BR higher than what you would have faced in a +0.7 uptier.
If we consider the “difficulty” to be the AVERAGE BR you face, then the actual amount the difficulty goes up in a higher uptier is about 5-6x more than how much the difficulty would go up if it was indeed only those top few people changing, as you are implying.
(Avg BR goes from 5.09 → 5.41 here, not 5.09 → 5.15)
Another way of thinking about it that roughly means the same thing and may be easier is “Not only did you gain a few enemies at BR 6.0 (in the above example) who are hard to kill, but you ALSO lost even more enemies at BR 4.7 who were really easy to kill, and a few of those were replaced with 5.0’s and 5.3’s not just 6.0s”
So the player with a positive K/D in the tiger p is asking for it to go down in BR… Bit fishy
T44 aint 1950 its 1944
The Tiger 2 P is not worse than the H. They have tradeoffs.
What we need is BR decompression probably up to around 14.0 or more. The Pershing shouldn’t be the same BR as a King Tiger. The Pershing also shouldn’t be the same BR as its Assault Variant E5. That’s like putting an M4A2 at 5.7 with the Jumbo 75.
Don’t compare a slow heavy tank to a fast and extremely well armored medium. Especially one that’s an entire BR bracket below the Tiger II.
There’s a saying to not compare Apples to Oranges.
Though fortunately the MM has been open for a few years so unless the team is one nation (a seperate issue that is often not acknowledged) then there are no real gaps, only due to players actions. And there is apparently a large number of those refusing to use the tools given because they skipped them or “want to play x regardless”. This appears worse in the more popular nations and the modern “get to top tier asap at level 10”.
Again, filled from other nations.
6.7 UK is worse, a questionable light and the Tortoise. Good luck with that heavy TD higher than 6.7 (cupola means even a 3.3 can probably frontally ruin it), and ATGM is NOT a wonder weapon. 50 cals can just spray those out the air anyway.
The gun, that gun with magic APHE sphere is still very strong and one shots what it can face.
Churchill at 5.7, what can it do? Especially when facing the tanks of 5.0, 5.3, the old 5.3, the old 5.7. Yes you can pull out other tanks first, but then so can 6.7 Tigers, especially in a mode with CAS/CAP.
The uptier into future world is the issue for most it seems.Vehicles like the T44 were WW2 vehicles even if they didn’t see action so the Tiger could have faced them and in a similar meta.The fast nature and hard hitting power of later vehicles makes tanks from 20 years previous seem redundant because they are and should be.It is a mess Gaijin could never clear up.
The thing is that seeing a Tiger II in reality for it’s enemies was a big deal but in the game you can be up tier and it becomes a joke and a liability.In reality by 44 trials were showing a number of allied tanks could punch out Tiger II amour in places especially the sides which is where WT players should be aiming for but many will just rather sit there and trade front shots and complain on the forum later.
6.7 would be fine and accepted if it was not for the up tier and the future vehicles.
I find it pretty useless and a bullet magnet,the breach is shot out before I see the enemy generally so as much as I would like to use it I don’t. Gaijin has a way of making all the tank legends into useless bores that are little fun which is a shame after all the effort put into grinding them and that is a major failing in the game unless you get a down tier.The serious failing of Warthunder is just how small the reign of dominance is for any vehicle in a war situation in reality and how silly pitting them against a machine twenty years newer really is.
Walls of king tigers mashing the W key and free aiming through the UFP of everything in the MU still seems to be working more often than not. I’m not seeing how slightly worse weakspot placement warrants being a different BR from the H model.
Tiger P at 5.3 means ARL-44, Jumbo, T-34 etc have to thread 1-3 weakspot hits against a heavy that kills 90% of the time on the first shot, regardless of where it hits on return fire. Meanwhile, Tiger P downtiered against a max BR of 7.7 doesn’t come up against anything more difficult to pen than the toughest 7.3 vehicles. You could argue its armor is useless in a full downtier, but that’s normal for all heavies, that’s kind of their tradeoff in this game.
Honestly, if it wasn’t almost 100% guaranteed that SnailGod will powercreep tanks with OP FCS features into 8.0 eventually, I’d vote for tiger II’s to go 7.0.
Most players play the big three.
If you’re fully uptiered to 7.7 on European Province and six players out of sixteen spawn in a Tiger II, you’re not gonna have a fun time. It’s as simple as that.
It is. My comment didn’t mean to imply that “Germany suffers” and everyone else has it fine and dandy.
Like someone else recently said here on the forums, WT is a permanent construction site. Stuff gets added faster than the old stuff can be fixed or finished. This is the result.
You yourself have stated multiple times that it is unwise to spawn heavies in a full uptier.
At 6.7 for Germany, the only realistic alternative you have is the LeK, meaning one spawn at best (though I suppose it can be enough for people who are good at flying CAS). Everything else is, to some degree or other, incurring a penalty cost for a bunch of extra armour that becomes dead weight in a full uptier.
You can uptier the JPz 4-5, I do that sometimes. I understand why it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, though. Gun handling is atrocious even by SPG standards, and the combination of extremely low profile + HEAT-FS can really screw with you sometimes. But at least it’s less boring than the LeK.
Sure. Same gun you find on the Tiger II Sla and H. By the time you’ve used both, if you’re at your third respawn, it means either the match is dragging, or that your team’s situation is very dire.
Let us ignore the Jagdtiger, LeK and JPz 4-5 and just look at all other options that use the long 88: there’s the Tiger II P, yes, but also the Ferdinand and two Jagdpanthers. If I’ve already used up the two “good” Tiger IIs, I would honestly rather take any of these three than the P anyway.
In my experience as a German main, it usually ends in disaster instead.
It’s not “slightly” worse, especially because turret armour in this game is always way more important than hull armour.
Is insanity, I agree. The solution to that is BR decompression. In a perfectly decompressed environment, the Tiger II P would be at 6.7 and the Tiger II production variants would be at 7.0.
An M4A3E2 should not fight Tiger IIs. It’s ridiculous.
On the other hand, like you mention about powercreep: Tiger IIs at 7.0 will get to meet the VIDAR again, and be on teams with Leopards, undoing the recent round of decompression. And remember: as always in this game, you’ll play a vehicle in an uptier far more often than in a downtier, and the 6.7 BR seems to get a higher frequency of full uptiers than others, at least for me (whereas I get for example a huge amount of full downtiers in 7.7).
That’s why we need decompression across the board. Localised decompression only creates more compression elsewhere.
Right now, Tiger II production variants are in the same spot that the Somua and the IS-6 were back in August, a bunch of stuff around and below them has gone up, making them nearly unstoppable in full downtiers. When I’ve had the occasional full downtier to 5.7 recently I literally didn’t enjoy it because it wasn’t sporting. It might not be what you expect a German main to say, but I’m all for Tiger II production variants going to 7.0, all I ask in return is that it doesn’t compress things again, because meeting the current 8.0s would be a nightmare.
And I do maintain also that there are simply too many better alternatives than the Tiger II P to make it worth spawning at the moment.
Sadly, anyone who though the last decompression changes were for gameplay and not for funny 7.7-8.0 premiums is going to feel very foolish before long. I think rather than balance the Tiger P, SnailGod will instead just choose to make it irrelevant in its own BR. I mean at 6.7, a German main powergamer already has the Tiger II H, Tiger II H SLA, Tiger II 10.5cm, Jagdtiger, Me-262’s, Arrado’s, Lekpz’s… just a few wunderwaffe away from people just actively choosing not to play it on their own, really.
I agree that the M26 is better than Panther and should be higher BR, but not 0.7 BR higher.
I just don’t see what would justify that.
The Panther A for example has overall great characteristics for it’s BR except for reverse speed. It has a very good gun, good mobility for it’s weight, good gun traverse speed, smoke grenades, narrow turret weakspots, derpy volumetric armor on the mantlet, and a very strong UFP.
The M26 is a very similar tank, but more versatile. Again, I think a BR difference of 0.3 is justified, but no more.
They could just move the first stage ammo rack into the hull and then both tigers would be somewhat equal (maybe track armor aswell but I don’t know if the tiger 2p had it)
I agree with everything else but at 7.7 I don’t see the Tiger has a trade off and that is the issue some will have.
Tiger II lurches from King of the battlefield to redundant clown at Gaijins whim.
You are assuming that every player has that line up which I don’t incidentally, and you are not addressing the individual vehicle on it’s own merits but the line up as a whole there.Quite a few few of us stop at that BR and that is why the crossover is so ugly on the uptier.