T-34-85 is slop and belongs to 4.7

[Milashny_Koteyka]

@KillaKiwi

Only the M4A2 is as competitive, simply because it gets frontal armor that can now stop Soviet 76mm shells pretty reliably

m4 has it too. It has pretty decent armor that stops 76mm reliably, only that it has some weakspots which have it 50/50 to be penned with 76mm. I still find it pretty reliable as T-34 is also not a maus, and has many weakspots frontally.

@KillaKiwi

They have M24 mobility but with armor that can stop other medium tank guns.

Shermans dont fall behind much tho. Yes, the 34 has it better, but shermans have stabs then. They have first shoot right usually.

@KillaKiwi

They are like Cromwells but with APHE and reverse speed.

well thats why cromwells sitting lower is a normal thing. Tho they have not the best APHE but 6pdr which has great ROF and good pen for their rank. I’d still prefer 34 or a sherman but i dont see where cromwells being 3.7 justifies shermans and panzer 4s being the same br.

@KillaKiwi

6.5-6.9s

their fastest is 7 seconds, and the base reload of 10 is a joke.

@KillaKiwi

5-5.9s for firing APHE

as sherman, chaffie have, yes.

@KillaKiwi

Mobility only beaten by Cromwell

id say the chaffie never falls behind, especially on routes that arent straight line. And shermans fall behind not much, especially on smaller maps. For real, the 34s and shermans dont usually fight the huge maps like Fields of Poland, so that difference is not really noticeable, especially on city maps.

@KillaKiwi

In theory a Pz IV is always going to get shot first by every other medium tank, besides a Chi-Nu or Pz III, because it doesn’t have mobility nor turret traverse to either react or be in flanking position.

I played specifically 4.7 with Panzer IV after what i read in the thread and discussed about panzer 4s. I really struggle to find it anything but skill issue, not to offend but to really represent what i mean.
I saw that the damage of the gun decreased in some ways, so i got many “assists”, tho i still easilly managed to secure 4 kills each game and survive the entire match or jump to a plane (i didnt bring any other panzerIV because i thought of it as of a one-game experience, just to be sure, tho i played several games after first one vent smoothly), even taking several shots with IV H. Same went for 4 matches. Yes, i wasnt able to get 10 kills easilly, but i used only one respawn of panzer IV, and got around 2-2,5k points easilly with 4,7 lineup with panzer IV H. ANd with a plane it was easy 3k points. So making it 4.3 and meeting less scary people, id easilly suggest it make 6 to 9 kills with lineup of them.

@KillaKiwi

Compared to a T-34 with 6.5-6.9s.
Inside a much tighter turret with no turret basket.

the 42 has 8.4 stock, whereas panzer IV has 7.6

the 41 with smallet turret has 9!!! stock. Thats crazy bias.

@KillaKiwi

The Cromwell is only going to die to a Pz IV by getting Gaijined and then getting shot in return.

or the 6pdr does nothing. ANd for the 75mm version to not pen panzer IV is regular event.

@KillaKiwi

The M4A1 and M4 are an easily kill from the front for a T-34

a1 maybe, as its hull pretty weak, but the m4? It still cant pen it frontally, only aiming at the weak spots which arent realiable. And then Sherman still has a right of first shot as has stab, easilly aiming for the turret or machinegun.

@KillaKiwi

The Chi-Nu, P40 and Pz IIIs aren’t even worth mentioning.

so thats why they are 3.3 where there is worst 34 is positioned, which cant even reliably shoot panzer IV Gs with tracks. And still somehow panzer IV G anf F2 at 3.3 is balanced :/

@KillaKiwi

So how does that make any sense that a Pz IV with two crews in the turret has a slower RoF than a T-34 with two crew in the turret?

because it does not have it? You tell the BEST reload rate of aced 34 with a basic reload rate of panzer IV.

@KillaKiwi

The T-34-76 are artificially a lot better than they should, simply because the RoF is far too good for a tank with two crews in a cramped turret with poor ergonomic.

they arent, even tho the hand-reload is a balance thing as devs always said.

@KillaKiwi

Doesn’t change the fact that the T-34 was just an up-armored up-gunned BT-7 and it wouldn’t have entered major production, if it wasn’t the best available tank at the time.

changes it drammatically. Because the KV, SMK, or other projects that had no Christie suspension, would go. Soviets also disliked the idea of the Christie tank suspension on the 34, and it would never enter production if there was not for the war. 34 entered production straight because of the war starting, and never changed because same reason. And any project of its modernizaton is pointless if it won’t enter production itself.

@KillaKiwi

The Soviets already knew about the Pz III before 1941 and realized

that the 15 to 30mm armored box is no match for their nevers technology, yes. Thats why the KV has the 5 men crew, and the 34-85 also intended to be that.

Its no doubt that soviets knew about bigger turrets advantage, thats for sure, thats why they used trophies later on the war. But they also knew that the doors on the side of turret made it weaker.

@KillaKiwi

They don’t put those on tanks for fun, you know?

and the USSR had no such ability at the start of the war, thats why no USSR tank has that. They had neither glass production nor technoligical experience to make cupolas. But later on the war 34s got them. Well, at least some of them, like the UZMT plant 34s

@KillaKiwi

APCR is useless compare to APHE

thats my line, but you said that APCR is partly reason M4A2 sits 4.0

@KillaKiwi

nd the M4A1 and M4 can’t take a Soviet 76mm to the front,

the m4a1 surely cant, but the M4 easillycan.
And the turret of both is practically invincible for the 34

@KillaKiwi

Only the turret front of T-34s is a weakspot

well there`s also a machinegun port. But the turret is weak enough to make 34 cry - the turret ring on any 34, the cheeks on every 34 are the weakspots any gun can pen, even the 40mm

[KillaKiwi]

@Milashny_Koteyka

or the 6pdr does nothing. ANd for the 75mm version to not pen panzer IV is regular event.

Not sure how you fail to pen a Pz IV turret but ok. It will also slice through the sides when the hull is angled just 20°, giving you a big target of the entire sides and turret.

[KillaKiwi]

@Milashny_Koteyka

thats my line, but you said that APCR is partly reason M4A2 sits 4.0

Pretty sure I never did. But quote me on that.

[Milashny_Koteyka]

@KillaKiwi

Not sure how you fail to pen a Pz IV turret but ok

its not that the AP shots of the 75mm on cromwell are super reliable so they sometimes bounce off the tracks, plus the hull is protected with ~100mm (IV G to J) which sometimes makes them bounce too. And with bad ballistics im struggling to hit presicely from a bit of a distance already.

@KillaKiwi

It will also slice through the sides when the hull is angled just 20°,

Will it? I have so many ricocheits with them that i never even tried andled shots. I just dont believe in them.

@KillaKiwi

Pretty sure I never did. But quote me on that.

ah i mistakenly called that on you, my bad. There was this man:

@rainy2000

They also have worse transmissions and no access to APCR nor smoke grenades.
It makes sense why they are lower.

[KillaKiwi]

@Milashny_Koteyka

the m4a1 surely cant, but the M4 easillycan.

Interesting. That’s actualy news to me. I remember the gun easily penetrating the hull.
But it still has a lot of weakspots, so there’s that.

@Milashny_Koteyka

well there`s also a machinegun port. But the turret is weak enough to make 34 cry - the turret ring on any 34, the cheeks on every 34 are the weakspots any gun can pen, even the 40mm

The area is very small. If you can hit the turret ring on 1942 reliably you might as well kill any tank in the game by hitting any weakspot, which just isn’t realistic.

The 1941 turret has a small target and you can angle it to make penetrating hits a lot less likely.
The 1942 turret becomes almost immune when angled.

Spoiler

[FlipAllTheTables]

@rainy2000

They also have worse transmissions

They don’t, their transmissions are all identical.

The M4A2 just has a different engine with a higher RPM output (2900 vs 2400). Higher RPM means higher theoretical top speed, but it also means worse torque in WarThunder, so the M4A2 accelerares noticeably slower than the M4 and M4A1. This matters a lot less in arcade though.

TL;DR: M4 and M4A1 don’t have worse transmissions, just different engines, giving them better acceleration but worse top speed.

[KillaKiwi]

@Milashny_Koteyka

its not that the AP shots of the 75mm on cromwell are super reliable so they sometimes bounce off the tracks

That can happen to any shell and isn’t related to 75mm solid shot.

@Milashny_Koteyka

And with bad ballistics im struggling to hit presicely from a bit of a distance already.

With the Cromwell you should be mostly in positions to just fire into the enemies sides.
The mobility advantage and turret traverse speed make it really hard for German tanks to engage it offensively.

[Milashny_Koteyka]

@KillaKiwi

But it still has a lot of weakspots, so there’s that.

it has two “optics” on hull which are easilly penned but not reliably as they have some interesting positioning and the APHE shots of 34 can explode early. However the entire hull is still strong to whistand shots, And with the M4A2 addind the tracks and removing the weakspots it becomes just invincible, which is not balanced tbh.

@KillaKiwi

The area is very small.

is it? I always thouhgt of it as the biggest weakspot, I mean its long and pretty wide for a shot to get there, likely a bit less tall than a Tiger cupola. And them cheeks are still easilly penned with any shot enemies have to them.

@KillaKiwi

That can happen to any shell and isn’t related to 75mm solid shot.

But i struggle on Cromwell with that much more than with M61 on Sherman for example

@KillaKiwi

With the Cromwell you should be mostly in positions to just fire into the enemies sides.

its not always a thing with WT maps and game design, and the solid shots work best frontally as i know.

@KillaKiwi

The mobility advantage and turret traverse speed make it really hard for German tanks to engage it offensively.

idk, i never thought of a Cromwell as of a big threat while playing Paners. THe shermans are the one as have stab and armor think enough frontally to bounce off some 75s at some angles.

[KillaKiwi]

@Milashny_Koteyka

so thats why they are 3.3 where there is worst 34 is positioned, which cant even reliably shoot panzer IV Gs with tracks. And still somehow panzer IV G anf F2 at 3.3 is balanced :/

But will one shot it with a hit in the turret or the sloped glacis.

Not to mention the surreal turret armor it has. It’s just a few pixels to get past the mantlet.

[Milashny_Koteyka]

@KillaKiwi

But will one shot it with a hit in the turret or the sloped glacis.

No, the L-11 cannon easilly unpens the IV with tracks to turret. It has like, 78mm pen. Litetal ±10% can make it unpen.

@KillaKiwi

Not to mention the surreal turret armor it has

not that the 34-40 had some better armor than 34-41. Idk, i again never had an issue with it nor i got many unpens to turret from viable cannons.

[rainy2000]

APCR can be useful. It just depends on the situation.
It’s always better to have access to APCR and occasionally use it than no access at all.

[Milashny_Koteyka]

@rainy2000

APCR can be useful.

as much as i want to agree i just see no use to it rather than having to pen KV-1 frontally. the Jubmo utilizes them well as it needs to pen tigers and Panthers but the Shermans, especially on that low of BR they are rn, usually okay with APHEs.

[KillaKiwi]

@Milashny_Koteyka

No, the L-11 cannon easilly unpens the IV with tracks to turret. It has like, 78mm pen. Litetal ±10% can make it unpen.

It’s pretty unlikely to non pen unless it’s at range.
The tracks bring the turret to 65mm, so it’s going through unless it’s angled or at range.

Again. 1940 T-34 at 3.3 vs. 1943 Pz IV at 3.7.

That’s crazy. Especially when the only reason the Cromwell is at 3.3/3.7 is the pathetic solid shot damage.

I mentioned it in another topic but the PT-76 used to have a reload of at best 10s, maybe longer.

Since Gaijin implemented its historical RoF.

Then they said screw it. RoF is for game balance and buffed it to 5s.

So it’s pretty obvious that a WW2 T-34 with its two-men turret isn’t going to have a better RoF than a post war light tank using an improved 76mm cannon and a similar two-men turret.

Historical the RoF of these T-34 was at best half of a Pz IV.

As this was the biggest flaw of the early T-34s, somewhat remedied with larger turret for the 85mm gun.

[rainy2000]

KV-1s can be more easily dealt with via APCR – at least at further ranges, especially the KV-1B / KV-1E.
APCR is also very useful against the Excelsior and angled turret Churchill III.

[KillaKiwi]

Yeah but it hardly makes a difference on the performance.

That one time where I one shot an IS-1 with Jumbo APCR isn’t ever going to repeat itself, realistically.

Could have killed him with APHE to the cupola.

[rainy2000]

But I’m not talking about the Jumbo.

The M4A2 can realistically use APCR on some occasions.

I’d only really use APCR with the Jumbo against Tiger Es and Panther Fs.

[Milashny_Koteyka]

@KillaKiwi

Pz IV at 3.7.

G is 3.3
I have no problem with F2 being 3.3 but seing the G there and then the H at 3.7 is crazy. Germans must be so bad at that game to this be true.

@KillaKiwi

Historical the RoF of these T-34 was at best half of a Pz IV.

Depends on who you ask. Soviet docs that were used to train soldiers say Panzer IV had ~8 shots per minute. Same as T-34 with F-32 cannon.

If anything, the 120mm Abrams can be loaded in 3 seconds. But thats not the case ingame. As its a game.

@rainy2000

at least at further ranges

uuugh no, at further ranges the APCR is as useless as APHE. But at close ranges it lets you snipe off small zones to get the gunner or the breech.

[An_Pigeon]

More often than not, that is what it is

[rainy2000]

Well I meant 100m / 150m instead of <50m.

Yes, you won’t really be able to engage KV-1s very easily past 200m+, even with APCR, but generally you are able to engage and penetrate KV-1s with APCR without really having go to point blank.

[KillaKiwi]

@Milashny_Koteyka

G is 3.3

G doesn’t have armor on the turret