It honestly amazes me that Gaijin refuses to make educated guesses on modern armor. They have enough proof to know tanks like the Ariete, Challenger 2, Abrams, Leclrec, ect. Have better or enhanced armor packages yet they refuse to model them because “no exact protection values are given”. There are plenty of educated estimates from tank experts and state intelligence organizations. Use those in combination with secondary sources it can’t be that hard.
A change is long overdue good luck Spanish +1 from me
It’s honestly so stupid that a game that sells itself on being “historically accurate” doesn’t work like this, the fact that they are so quick to change the rules of sources and if it should be taken into consideration is astounding. Especially the past couple weeks had been especially bad, I hope that the community sees the blantant disregard of sources and their eagerness to switch the rules that have been shown front and centre with the latest Abrams and manpad posts and can get gaijin to change how they model and balance their game similar to the recent economy rework. It’s so sad to see vehicles left to rot in broken states and made even worse with most updates (read ariate and Leclerc). Even someone like myself who trys to ignore and not believe the “Russian bias” ordeal, it’s so hard to look past just how bad and blantant it is when they refuse to believe the primary and secondary sources that show proof of something like the recent manpad post where their defence really is just “our technology couldn’t do that so there’s no way western technology could be that good”
I have my fingers crossed that all of this drama does spark change, a and hopefully a rework of their implementation to what you have provided but I find it so hard to have any hope it will.
I agree completely. Too many issues with tanks like the Challenger 2 that have been denied due to “lack of sources” and yet they also dont want us to leak classified information. Which then means the Challenger 2 underperforms.
Only concern is that they’ll be in a position to choose what is enough material and that modern, classified vehicles get denied due to a lack of information, but certain ones still go through
I do agree with that but however community has its wants and you can tell by community supposing what will be next in update, fale leaks, videos, forum suggestion and talks.
What I basically mean is I am sure that Gaijin just cant choose to not implement a vehicle if that said vehicle is heavily requested by community.
Another matter is trying to keep up with top tier enviroment. We keep going into better and better vehicles, while some minor nations literally dont have that much to keep up and if these are any better than current is uknown. If you give only one nation something that you can model on top tier its no good step, you’re leaving other nations behind. Its better to wait for a moment you have collected data enough to model vehicles enough for other nations as well.
Gaijin chooses to try to give others stuff too, yet accuracy of that stuff usually suffers, and theres still nations left behind.
Perhaps Gaijin could add a rule or a secondary requirement for giving sources and etc where they can get information on modeling the vehicle right in the suggestion on forum.
I have to agree with this proposed idea. We are at the point where primary sources are just simply not going to be obtainable because these vehicles are still classified. We can however use multiple secondary sources to provide a well educated guess that is most likely on track with how the vehicle is performing in real life.
Gaijin needs to understand that obtaining primary sources is just not feasible anymore and we shouldn’t be adding vehicles in based on sources that are both outdated and do not relate to the vehicle in question. In my opinion using a primary source for a completely different vehicle to base a new vehicle is literally the same as using a secondary source from the beginning because the source they are using isn’t even a primary source to the vehicle itself!
With this we should hopefully find the abrams and leopard getting armor buffs.
A insanely well thought out suggestion put in a way that it is simple to understand/translate. I really hope this gets somewhere, thank you for taking the time to make this suggestion.
I always thought they were already doing this since the start of medern vehicles…It was common sense to me to do a lot of educated guesstimations or giving some vehicles/weapons the benefit of the doubt of how they work or how they perform for top tier due to some info not being made public yet or still classified…then once released, Gaijin dev can simply make the corrections years down the line. Guess not…
So… This is a link I got to one of the “sources” posted in the form : https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/YCmfAEiaPZSq?comment=yUa5l0zFDKNlMhTN1aUBtZMU
I couldn’t find a lot of evidence that the hull got DU, only “enhanced crew survivability and improved side protection” and a lot said that it got DU. As you can see, the closest I got to the hull DU was this table, the turret cheeks got second-gen DU in it, but nothing about the hull. However, this “primary source” as described by the community states that the M1A2 is 70 Ton… While various other “primary sources” given in that discussion was stating smaller numbers, and even the WT Wiki confirmed it. Meaning, either the sources are incorrect or the in-game M1A2 is underweight. The only thing that most if not all the sources agree on is the FLIRS ( forward-looking infrared sight )
Only thing I have to say is it’s important to account for the different types of tons.
You’ve got the US ton, which is the smallest one (short ton), short ton’s about 2,000lbs or 907.8kg
The imperial ton (long ton), Imperial Ton’s about 2,240lbs or 1,016kg
then metric ton, which is 2,204lbs or 1,000kg flat.
Most sources put the M1A2 at around 62.5 imperial tons, which comes out to 70 short tons. So if I had to guess that source is using short tons instead of imperial tons.
And there’s already a bug report out there about the M1A2 being underweight by about .8 tons
This should have been the norm from the start. Otherwise obviously russian vehicles which have every single bit about them unclassified and well known via primary sources will beat NATO tanks with at best primary sources from 80s. But i am afraid we are just screaming into the void.
Every vehicle should be treated like this, not just. It should be implemented as close as possible to available sources, and bug reportable based on such too.
If no primary source for something exists, secondary should be used, if that doesn’t exist either, educated guesses should be made.
This reminds me of the F-16AJ, which was implemented poorly due to lack of sources. While it is very much debatable if it should have been added in the first place, what annoyed me the most was how it was added.
Spoiler
There is exactly one source on it, being a brochure. Yet Gaijin changed what was shown in this source by making it closer to a regular F-16A. Gaijin eventually released a statement saying they didn’t implement the F-16AJ, but a hypothetical F-16A in Japanese service.
They even stated they guessed F-16AJ would have lost capabilities in actual production, by saying nobody else used this specification of F-16 (tested on a YF-16A). This had no source behind it, yet could not be reported based on the brochure alone…
I really hope this post leads to at least some form of change for the game, as more classified or otherwise hard to research vehicles will be added and the current system simply doesn’t work for those.
Sadly this topic is not getting as much attention as we would like it. I hope that after new year more people will return to the forum and vote.
Also a question to the 20 people who voted no. Why? It is one of the changes that has no downsides. You can implement and change things using secondary sources and in worst case scenarios educated guesses. I dont see a reason to vote no.
