ETA on Submarines please?
In last dev stream the main guy said that they will “say a little” in next major update. So nothing is 100% confirmed.
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There are kinda two ways submarines do stealth. Option one is sitting below the thermal layer to that both active and passive sound waves are bounced along it leaving the submarine in a “shadow zone”.
The second way submarines do stealth is by making themselves quieter. This starts with using batteries, it then moves on to special coatings on the outside that are supposed to absorb sound waves, propeller designs that reduce cavitation, I think either the oberon or porpoise class had special rubber blocks to which the machinery was mounted so that the sound of the machines vibration was dampened, & then of course came nuclear submarines which have even fewer moving parts and so less vibration & less noise.
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Do you see this being added?
Considering that a fairly simplistic multipathing mechanic is implemented, I could certainly see it as much of the code could simply be reused wholesale, but maybe not individually set based on a per map basis. Similar to the way that multipathing and ground return aren’t impacted by the surface the radar’s return are reflecting off and are set at a uniform 60 meters (post-height reduction)
The issue would be as to how deep would it be set, since a submarines ability to change depth isn’t anything like an aircraft’s ability to change altitude to take advantage of it. It may well be adjusted after it goes live to fine tune things.
You kill your engines and flip the blue lights which means silent mode (atleast thats what you do in UBOAT game). Then you just wait till the guy above you start to think you are dead, run out of patience or get distracted be other targets.
Dont worry, even with ASDIC submarines were still giving nightmares to allied convoys in Atlantic…
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God I fucking hope so, it’d offer vital counterplay to subs. Also, sonar blind spots behind the ship outwards in a cone shape (known as baffles) also should be implemented. (That said, ships that had towed arrays should be able to deploy them with all the benefits & losses that comes with them. Also dipping sonars and sonobouys from helicopters please).
IRL it depends on a bunch of things like salinity, temperature, the time of day, season, & even the local weather. About 3 minutes of googling tells me the thermal layer (the depth at which the water temperature starts to rapidly change) can be anywhere between 20 to 200 meters depth. Here is an online thing that tells you the surface temperature of the water across the globe, as well as other neat things.
I need to look this up properly but I’m fairly sure that, in a calm flat sea in the middle of the day with no clouds, the thermal layer would be quite deep & strong. However, in rough stormy conditions in a cold patch of water in the middle of the night near the arctic circle, there is basically no layer.
Now these are two exaggerated extremes but the point stands that depending on a bunch of stuff, you can basically be totally hidden from surface sonar, or completely visible to it.
… except their moving parts need to be in constant operation to generate power rather than just to consume it, and are generally related to the handling of high-pressure steam which on it 's own is a significant source of noise.
when All else abt the configuration being equal, a nuclear-powered submarine will be louder than a diesel-electric - there 's just irl reasons to justify the increase in detectability, like operational autonomy, which probably won’t be reflected in gameplay.
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Oh? I always thought they were quieter on average no?
Later ones are, but that’s once they move away from using steam as the “Working” fluid to more exotic materials like molten salt.
I thought too, but first nuclear submarine USS Nautilus was as loud as normal diesel-electric. Mostly because same “sword” shape as ww2 subs. Later when they got into better hydrodynamic torpedo shape like modern subs they started to be really quiet. Also better propeller designs and overall technology gettin better over the years too.
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AH! Yeah that makes sense. I remember reading on wiki or something that either the oberon or porpoise class subs were quieter than things like the USS nautillus and alot of other contemporary nuclear subs of the time.
In cold waters, you’re in what’s basically a modern US nuclear sub against soviet diesel electrics so that’s probs why I thought generally nuclear subs were quieter diesel electric ones.
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The GUPPY program would be nice to see in game. The U.S.A. took there old WW2 boats and modified them with the lessons learned from war time experience and the German Type XXI submarine. You lose your guns. (maybe you get a bridge MG if the snail wants to be generous.) But you gain more speed and acoustic dampening plus much more.
Balao Class sub before GUPPY ( USS Balao in 1944)
After GUPPY II
USS Greenfish (1960s same class)
A lot of subs that went though the GUPPY program would be sold off to other nations and gained further upgrades and changes so if we get a lot of GUPPY boats in game the USA tree might overpower the German U-boats in hunting power.
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Though concerning how after ww2 subs lost there guns it seems like deck guns may be coming back IRL to handle Kamikaze/smuggling boats because your torpedo you fire is likely more expensive then that modified speed boat.
Take this with a grain of salt but the Russia’s BOSS Submarine Concept displays this thinking but who knows if she gets built. But what’s old is new again I suppose.
So in game the cannons on the WW2 subs may be useful for handling torpedo boats which might be difficult to hit with a torpedo or be a poor trade in SL. While post war subs or GUPPY program might struggle vs costal boats.
Has the shadow zone changed IRL with the improvement in acoustic technologies and computers? This seems like something that more powerful systems can overpower. Or is this just the quark of water being the medium of sound and more power cant fix that?
Yes and No, no because the only thing more powerful sonars would do is give you longer range, but yes because new technologies like dipping sonars from helicopters and towed arrays from boats and submarines basically not only nullify thermoclines but also baffles as well
Yeah, it’s a physics thing I’m pretty sure.
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Just wanted to add this image of USS Torsk in drydock before she was turned into a museum ship.
Would be a cool skin
Also exported GUPPYS some maybe still had guns.
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Thank you this is very interesting
What modifications did the different GUPPY programs actually introduce? And to which submarines? Because I’m pretty sure there were like, 3 or 4 different GUPPY modifications and they were applied to the tench class, tang class, gato class, and balao class?
The entire thing is very confusing to try and even attempt to wrap ones head around at 2am.
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Very true I will go over some of the webpages info I found.
The overall GUPPY modifications where interesting as they where a stall method for the US Navy because of the changes in technology mainly influence of the Type XXI U-boat and the end of the IJN following the war. The main fear was the USSR was going to mass produce subs based off of captured German tech like the German Type XXI U-boat and copy the German U-boat strategy.
XXI U-Boat as an example of what inspired the U.S.A. & U.S.S.R. though the XXI was extremely flawed due to a multitude of issues but was considered revolutionary and likely would have been a pain for the allies if produced much earlier. Thank you Covert shores he is awesome with his research and art.
The GUPPY Program diagrams
Guppy I 1946
Tench class
- Odax
- Pomodon
Hull:
Changes in periscope, radar mast, hydrodynamic design, and addition of SV radar aerial (No snorkel due to technology issues) Addition of deck safety equipment AKA rails and general stuff. Fleet bow to Guppy bow AKA that is how it got its name.
Propulsion:
Improvement to battery for longer endurance and more power but shorter work life (not relevant in game not withstanding underwater speed and power).
GUPPY II program 1947-1951
Same as GUPPY I but this time with Snorkel but with introduction of 2 types of sail Electric Boat sail and Portsmouth sail. (basically the same just some small differences) This is the pan ultimate GUPPY version but this would come at a monetary cost which the navy did not like or could sustain. The GUPPY program was suppose to save money by not building modern subs and there was the thinking that the navy of obsolete in the era of Atomic Weapons. So the GUPPY II was not rolled out to every boat of the fleet due to cost concerns but there where many such boats upgraded to this standard.
Balao class:
- Catfish
- Clamagore
- Cobbler
- Cochino
- Corporal
- Cubera
- Diodon
- Dogfish
- Greenfish
- Halfbeak
- Tiru
- Trumpetfish
- Tusk
Tench -class
- Amberjack
- Cutlass
- Grampus
- Grenadier
- Odax
- Pickerel
- Pomodon
- Remora
- Sea Leopard
- Sirago
- Volador
GUPPY IA
This was a cheaper version of the GUPPY II with the only main change being in the area of batteries. The old WW2 battery set up was kept but the battery where upgraded. The new battery had longer work life and had operational time in-between the GUPPY II set up and the original WW2 setup. The sonar system was improved and moved under the galley. General livability was improved as well.
Balao class
- Atule
- Becuna
- Blackfin
- Blenny
- Caiman
- Chivo
- Chopper
- Sea Poacher
- Sea Robin
Tench-class
- Tench
Fleet Snorkel Program
This was the bargain bin program because of the cost the GUPPY program was too much for what the overall program was providing. The program removed all cannons streamlined the sail, better electrical systems and improved the AC.
Gato class
- Guitarro
Balao class
- Bergall
- Besugo
- Brill
- Bugara
- Carbonero
- Carp
- Charr
- Chub
- Cusk
- Kraken
- Lizardfish
- Mapiro
- Mero
- Piper
- Sabalo
- Sablefish
- Scabbardfish
- Sea Cat
- Sea Owl
- Segundo
- Sennet
- Sterlet
Tench class
- Argonaut
- Diablo
- Irex
- Medregal
- Requin
- Runner
- Spinax
- Torsk
GUPPY IIA
A general improvements to these boats in the form is solving space issues. Similar to the GUPPY II but with removing forward engine and replacing it with pumps and AC equipment. New battery installed where old cells where located.
Balao class
- Bang
- Entemedor
- Hardhead
- Jallao
- Menhaden
- Picuda
- Pomfret
- Razorback
- Ronquil
- Sea Fox
- Stickleback
- Threadfin
Tench class
- Quillback
- Thornback
- Tirante
- Trutta
GUPPY IB
This program was meant for export which was similar to the original GUPPY program but with the lack of sonar, fire control, and ESM
Gato class
Barb
Dace
Balao class
Hawkbill
Icefish
GUPPY III
The GUPPY III program was the final program of the GUPPY program. The goal was to solve issues of GUPPY II which was mainly cramped spaces. This included the addition of new passive ranging sonar, fire control, and the availability to fire atomic torpedo.
Balao class
- Clamagore
- Cobbler
- Corporal
- Greenfish
- Tiru
- Trumpetfish
Tench class
- Pickerel
- Remora
- Volador
Well this is a general run down of the GUPPY Programs which I hope to see in game because of the play style the might bring to naval for better or worse if subs are added. When subs are added feel free to use this as a jumping off point to explore GUPPY boats and if this inspires you just add my tag in the thank you section.
References:
http://www.hisutton.com/Type-XXI-U-Boat-of-World-War-Two.html
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