Nor are Aim-9Ls on the Tornado Or AGM-65Ds on the Harrier Gr7. For the purpose of balance, a compromise needs to be made. The Su-39 is a more modern jet than most, and adding its era appropriate missiles, would be unbalanced, so the missiles from the current game era, should be conisdered instead.
I think so, too. Don’t forget that Su-25T hangs these missiles not on extreme pylons, thus it loses missiles against tanks
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Why not just give it R-27R, something that’s actually in its catalog of weapons, it would give the radar pod a wider purpose as well.
Because BVRs on a CAS jet could be very powerful within a gamemode like GRB
I don’t see how it would be OP, especially if the aircraft can’t even get over Mach 8.5, it would be rather limited in range compared to an aircraft going beyond Mach 1. The R-27T also has IRCCM and can track very well in the rear aspect, I’d expect it to be the other way around.
But at this point I’m not even worried about new missiles, I’d just like to have a thermal pod.
First off. Very few CAS jets can actually go beyond Mach 0.8/0.9. Jaguar with a full bomb load can barely maintain Mach 0.95, but could still easily hit a target that is performing CAS at a range of 10-20km easily. More than enough for the relatively tiny size of a GRB match. And many jets could be a lot slower due to performing tight turns.
R-27T, as far as I understand, is basically a 9G but all-aspect. Being IR, it has inherrent short-comings. Like limited range and is generally easier to defeat
R-27R might be no big deal, it might be very very powerful. Thats the point im trying to make. We have no idea what kind of effect it could have and if its too strong, not a lot you could do about it. Can’t necessarily whack up its BR, its Premium, and cant remove the missiles after the fact. So incremental buffs and careful consideration is needed.
Yeah, Thermal pod admission was a strange thing, I’d not see too many issues with that
Personally it just sounds like you’re making it out to be something that it isn’t and it doesn’t even sound like you’re sure if it’ll be OP. Everyone has their own opinions though, I personally don’t see any issue with either.
Weeee, didn’t agree to anything, that’s just your assertion that if the Su-39 gets capabilities that you already find at that BR then it would somehow become OP, not to mention it can have separate battle ratings at different game modes. Honestly tho it seems like your problem was that you got an uptier. Currently the Su-39 is just and Su-25 with IRCM, which while helpful is far from game breaking.
I use to enjoy the Lightning in ARB, but stopped because A-10s long range sniping with Aim-9Ls and there being 0 defence. Just want to avoid the same thing happening again. Soviet BVR missiles are really strong at the moment, Especially compared to things like the SkyTrash that can barely hit a large aircraft. The idea of a, by all accounts, very good GRB CAS jet, that is also premium, getting a big missile buff very early on, has some serious implications. I’ve fought against a few Su-39s in the Tornado Gr1 in a few SB matches, and they were a pain in the arse. IRCM is insane, a totally blocks 9Ls at any range, in a huge arc. Dont really want to be in the boat where i’m now also having to try and dodge BVRs from them too with only 28 chaff.
How? We already have multi role fighter jets but honestly anyone doing CAS is gonna be so preoccupied with the ground anyways.
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Not really, most players will take out enemy jets if they can. Giving one of the strongest CAS jets in game, the same A2A power that most Top tier fighters have is a recipe for disaster.
But make your argument then.
I have major concerns about a missile as strong as the R-27R being on one of the best CAS jets in the game, that happens to also be Premium within GRB, especially in downtiers/vs lower tier jets due to their range, accuracy and the difficulty to evade a BVR properly, especially when you yourself are trying to perform CAS and therefore at a lower speed than you’d be otherwise.
I also have some concerns that the Su-39 in downtiers in ARB could be problematic if it was armed with BVRs. 9Ls dont work against the Su-39. I’ve not tried it, but I doubt 9Gs are much better. So that would force many jets to use their guns, and not all are that nimble. Nor could they always get close enough if they have BVRs coming at them, especially as not all have CMs, or at least that many.
I also have concerns about them in ASB. They are a common jet at the moment (Usually about 50% of the enemy team in EC8) BVRs could give the Su-39 a lot of power, especially vs lower tier jets that would have a lot less warning than most. RWR is also less reliable in ASB due to the amount of RWR pings that can occur.
So… Forget about “Historical Precendant”. I can name a number of jets that are missing critical loadouts options that would be “Historically accurate” but arent because of balance reasons.
and dont think exclusively about Su-39 vs 11.3-12 in ARB. Try to think about 10.3-10.7 jets vs Su-39 in all gamemodes
So answer me these questions:
Why do you think they’d NOT be too powerful?
Why it needs BVRs and not just slightly stronger (9L equivalent) IR missiles.
And finally
What would you do, if it turned out that any addition WAS really strong?
and personally to me it just sounds like you are making it out as if it was nothing. Like they were just adding a new Skin for the jet. Your right, I have no idea what will happen. No one does. But it certainly has potential to make a big impact.
I’d admit, im thinking mostly about the worse case scenarios. But having spent the past few months having a rather shitty time in WT due to the overwhelming power of the Mig-29, the idea of the Soviets new Premium jet, having a major upgrade early on, getting enough of a power upgrade to “potentially” put it on par with that of most equivlanet tier sub-sonic air superiority fighters and certainly making it one of the best A2A CAS jets in the game. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I’d rather advocate for extreme caution and intensive argument for any minor upgrade. Than to risk being completely outclassed by another soviet jet. Especially as this time, its a premium jet and at a much lower BR
Bare in mind that the R-27R are a better BVR missile than the SkyFlash ST on the Tornado F3 currently. That is no small upgrade for the Su-39.
Some on here are asking for small upgrades, R-27T would be a good starting point I think, as its basically a 9L and that would put the Su-39 on par with the Gr7. But others are demanding R-73s and R-77s and that would be rediculous to an extreme. And whilst R-27Rs are no where near them, they could still have a big impact and its a slippery slope from the R-27R to it getting the R-27ER and then onto the R-77. Some I think, wont be happy with the state of the Su-39 until it could take on any jet in 1v1 combat and always win.
and when so many jets at the moment are under-performing, and barely usable a lot of the time. Despite obvious AAM upgrades being available, could set a really bad precendent.
As I see it, most on here want an AAM upgrade for the Su-39 because its under-performing in ARB exclusively. It probably is. But Smin has already stated that its performance in GRB is good and that an attacker is unlikely to do well in ARB.
This is not new.
The Tornado Gr1 has almost no CMs, their IR missiles are nearing un-usable, it has a huge turn radius and its ground attack payload is much to be desired. It was added in December and 6 months later, has just recieved PGMs that finally give it any kind of value beyond base bombing in ARB/ASB but even now, they are not really usable, and probably wont be for a few more weeks maybe even months… Yes it had the laser guided bombs, but they’ve only recently added the CCIP interface, that has made them much more usable. Until the addition of PGMs, I’d quite confidently say the Torando Gr1 was under-performing in ALL gamemodes, not just ARB.
The Gr1 would greatly benefit from Aim-9L/i s or Aim-9Ms. As its ARB power is arguably less than that of the Su-39. But neither of those upgrades are on the horizon currently, and might never come. It would be really really unfair, if the Su-39 got a BIG AAM upgrade because it was under-performing in 1 gamemode, after only a few weeks but others that have been in the boat for months, have not.
The WT Wiki sums up the Tornado Gr1 ARB experience the best:
" Taking an active role in air-to-air combat is not advised, as the Tornado’s flight performance is not suited to it and you’ll most likely be shot down very quickly. So keep in mind that although the Tornado is fast, its not very manoeuvrable at high speed so try to avoid faster enemies such as the F-16 or the F-14. In the case of 1-to-1 confrontation the best option is to simply hope you are faster and run away, against capable fighters like the MiG-23, F-16, MiG-29, Viggen, F-14, and Mirage 2000 you don’t stand a chance, unless the enemy pilot is extremely inexperienced."
So when you are here, expecting AAM upgrades for the Su-39, a Premium jet, that has features that many would kill for, that is by all accounts doing very well in GRB. Do bare in mind that you aren’t the only one suffering in ARB or air-to-air encounters. I know that is no excuse for the Su-39 NOT to get an AAM upgrade, but it took the Tornado Gr1 6 months to get a GRB upgrade, its main role. and still no ARB upgrade. So dont expect anything anytime soon
Way I see it is as a CAS player at top tier, most people actually engaged in case are too tunnel visioned to go after other airplanes, or don’t wanna risk getting shot down by AA to try and go after another jet unless the opportunity presents itself, and the vast majority of kills are with Fox 2’s anyways, because most cas players are hugging the ground since if they go high your liable to get shot down By SPAA. In this context a Fox 1 like an R-27R isn’t gonna even be useful half the time cus your opponent is gonna be low and bobbing in and out of terrain, so you may not even get a lock half the time.
Ontop of this we already have several multi role fighters that have great CAS capabilities and some still retain the capability to fire Fox 1’s. The late French mirages are excellent planes that also have very respectable CAS options, and unlike the Su-39 don’t have to sacrifice base flight prefromance.
Nothing compared to what the Su-39 has. A fraction of the A2G power.
True, but the other half of the time, it could be a very very easy A2A kill. and some weapons, like GBUs, need to be dropped from height. At least certainly suffecient height for an R-27R kill.
l’d rather just wait for R-73 to be honest, Su-25T has a hidden load out for it so we’ll wait to see what they do with that.
I see R-73s being a possible option in 6 months, maybe even a year+ time, after we see Aim-9M/R-73s rolled out onto jets. As well total CM overhaul a far more likely addition than BVRs on a CAS jet. R-73s being added now, before any of that, especially with how good IRCM is, would just make the Su-39 way too srong
Nobody knows, we just got Python-3 and PL-8 so I’d expect similar weapons shortly after, only difference being 2-element crossed array meaning a bit more flare resistance.
I’ve not had any encounters with either missile yet, Though a quick glance at info I can find on the R-73 does suggest they’d have a far greater range. Though difficult to find specs for a specific missile variant. Its IRCCM is definetly my biggest concern. Especially with something like the Gr1 having so few flares.
Yeah, maybe. Either way, I’d not expect any additional AAM for 6 months at least, and even then, I’d not expect it to be massive. By then, who knows what we’ll have. Imagining Su-39 with R-73s or R-27Rs right here, right now, is quite scary. I know none of my usual jets (Jaguar or Torando Gr1) wouldn’t stand much of a chance in a less than ideal encounter. Even the Harrier Gr7 could have a tough time in the right/wrong situation.
But who knows what the future might hold. Im hoping for a BR decompression at some point, and that would benefit the Su-39 greatly. Along with many other improvements like CM overhaul
the biggest issue will not be for fighters but other CAS jets at 11.0.
dedicated CAS isnt known for being manouverable [point and case tornado, su22, etc] giving one of the best radar missiles to something that would be spammed is… like you said, scary.
we not only have to think about the battle impact but also the impact on teammates and opposition. basically its an oversaturation of fox 1’s from CAS to CAS and fighters which isnt good for the usual battle.
IMO the su39 shouldnt have been added. we already had the su25k. and the TM was a great addition but what sets it apart is that you have to grind it out. meaning you leanr how to pilot it along the way.
helps to know how to not suffer in top teir lol