i mean wouldnt be the first time a nation did questionable choices
there were worse choices done in history about armor procurement
1 Like
Found extra info, the APS is optional, not standard:
(https://www.knds.de/fileadmin/user_upload/broschueren_2024/KNDS_B_Ansicht_LEOPARD2A8_EN.pdf)
3 Likes
I bet Sweden gonna get it before German since they are the only one that have right to get Uparmored Leopard more than anyone.
Sounds like abomino solution lol.
Well not expect much from country that make infamous Ariete.
Hueh, I wonder if they’ve already tested DM83 against a 2A8.
Will be interesting to see what options or modifications they will go for in the future, once more details about the purchase is released/leaked.
1 Like
The FMV post on it states something about having the same tank as norway and germany is good for buying ammunition and parts so likely a better apfsds as they have already bought a more modern shell for the infantry aspect
“Med Stridsvagn 123 får Sverige samma stridsvagnssystem som Tyskland och Norge, vilket ger goda förutsättningar för inköp av ammunition och reservdelar.”
“With the 123 tank, Sweden will get the same tank system as Germany and Norway, which provides good conditions for purchasing ammunition and spare parts.”
Either way if they dont the new gun, L/55A1 over L/44, will be a significant improvement to the Slpprj m/95 which is the main thing for in game and unless DM73 or greater suddenly rocks up for every other nation then it will remain fairly competitive
We know from the dutch that all 2A8s will be mostly the same for easier logistics. I don’t see a reasont to not want the APS either.
“Voor alle afnemende landen is de tank identiek – dus zonder land-specifieke eisen – met als enige uitzondering de voorzieningen voor nationale command & control middelen.”
“For all buyer countries, the tank is identical - i.e. without country-specific requirements - with the only exception being the provisions for national command and control assets.”
Well, as someone said above, militaries have previously made even more questionable decisions than that XD
The reasons i personally can see are; budget, having an alternative lined up or wating for better alternatives that you know are about to hit the market soon.
Do you have the source for the last part? might it be in reference to a specific purchase made by several countries at once and not for all future sales?
It’s a letter from the dutch defence minister to the parliament. The section talks specifically about the 2A8. This is the context:
“Germany therefore invited in mid-2023 a number of partner countries, including the Netherlands, to participate in the joint procurement of tanks through a demand-led initiative: the European Leopard 2A8 Procurement Initiative. To promote both production speed and wider European interoperability, production will be limited to one variant: the Leopard-2A8. For all buyer countries, the tank is identical - i.e. without country-specific requirements - with the only exception being the provisions for national command and control assets.”
Oh then Sweden might not have been included in that. They announced in October 2023 that they are only going to upgrade their old ones, they didn’t order the new 2A8 ones until very recently (~a year later, announced 2 days ago).
Well, KNDS was expecting a swedish order for newly built tanks before 2023. This table is from 2021 to 2022, talks were already well underway at that point.
That’s old enough to mention the 2A7 instead of the 2A8. Either way that won’t really make a different to the above statement being a reference to a specific group of buyers and not every 2A8 sale made before or after that statement.
Additionally i don’t think the statement includes optional addons (not sure though), just the base model (I.e; same armor, same transmission/engine, same gun, same sights, etc).
Because the 2A8 hadn’t been officially revealed at the time… The dutch statement supposedly being “for a group of buyers” is a weird assumption, when the text says “all buyer countries”. FMV also states they were early and managed to reserve production capacities so it definitely applies to the swedish 2A8s as well.
This is what makes me think that:
Specifically the underlined parts.
That doesn’t tell us when that order happened though, they could just as well mean yesterday and still think that is early in relation to other nations that are considering it. It likely didn’t happen before October 2023 as that’s when the order for the upgrades of the 122’s was made and no new tanks were ordered nor were part of the budget at that point.
So using words like “definitely” is not really realistic in this scenario as there are multiple ways the text can be interpreted.
in regards to the terms early, there might have been some agreement signed before october but not revealed till the plans to upgrade the current fleet was finalized.
Strv123A vs SEPv4, M1E3, maybe AbramsX, T-14, Leo 2A8 and challenger 3 will be interesting top tier
2 Likes
The deal to upgrade was signed some time before October -23, announced then and was included in that years budget report.
The deal to purchase new ones likely came after that and wasn’t announced until January -25 (more than a year later).
At least from what i have been able to find.
A new video released from Max Villman on the new 2A8, contextually it seems like it will be the version Sweden is buying but it is a bit unclear and I’ll have to rewatch to see if he mentions anything regarding features Sweden have or haven’t ordered etc (i just skimmed it first time around to see if it was of interest att all to link on the forum).
1 Like
I mean as far as I have understood it form the German side, we don’t really now yet how 2A8 will look finalized, we mainly know which specifications it will have but all the tanks we saw were all just mock ups. We will have to wait a bit till we see public images of the first production models. (IIRC testing should start this year)