Should the Panzer IV (H / J) move up to 4.0 / 4.3?

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
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What? It can withstand shots, but it likely wouldn’t since the 4.0 T-34s have more than enough to cut through the turret and the hull of a Pz. IV. The turret is incredibly vulnerable due to how large the flat surfaces are, which is why the 4.0 T-34s can generally deal with the Pz. IV easier than they can be dealt with back.

The Pz. IV is also an utter crap chassis compared to the Shermans. The M3 75-mm is just enough to deal with anything you meet propt to 5.0 because the Sherman is a good tank, while the Pz. IV is a crappy box.

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167

If we`re talking G to H, the hull is practically unpennable - 100mm armor with addons against 89mm pen. And the turret is 70 with add-ons so its still weak, but 300m distance or some bad angle and its also unpen. + weird mask that somehow makes unpens.

Id say the worst part of Panzer is its sides, both turret and hull. Hull side with huge angle is where i shoot most when i meet Panzer IV H or J with T-34 40 or 34-41

Its true, however better reverse makes a bit up for that. Plus depending on sherman model, teh dont always show huge difference.
Id say, take the Stab away and sherman mostly becomes worst tank at the rank.

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If we`re talking G to H, the hull is practically unpennable - 100mm armor with addons against 89mm pen. And the turret is 70 with add-ons so its still weak, but 300m distance or some bad angle and its also unpen. + weird mask that somehow makes unpens.

The hull is 95 mm with a fat driver’s port. The turret is 65 mm. The F-34 can penetrate both of them while the L-11 can still easily penetrate the turret.

Its true, however better reverse makes a bit up for that. Plus depending on sherman model, teh dont always show huge difference.

It’s only 1 to 2 km faster in reverse compared to its contemporaries. It doesn’t make up for its armor profile or its relative lack of mobility.

Id say, take the Stab away and sherman mostly becomes worst tank at the rank.

Okay.

Who cares?!

You can’t take the stab away, it’s a part of the tank, why would you even mention that.

169

its 80 + 20?
Its still unpennable for the 89mm penetration tho

It is surely a weakspot, but on H is covered that way it becomes less viable

again, 50 + 20?

Not sure

Ah thats where you`re wrong. L11 shoots the MD-5 shots that 1) pen 78mm 2) have a 10mm explosion fuse that those tracks intercept pretty well

to make a point that Sherman is a great tank mostly not because it has good cannon or protection. But because it has that one special feature, that lets him shoot first in several occasions.

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its 80 + 20?

Track armor is only 75% effective. The 20 mm is only 15 mm protection.

Its still unpennable for the 89mm penetration tho

So? The F-34 can pen 96 mm with its APCBC and 125 mm with its APCR.

Ah thats where you`re wrong. L11 shoots the MD-5 shots that 1) pen 78mm 2) have a 10mm explosion fuse that those tracks intercept pretty well

The L-11 is capable of penetrating the turret from half a kilometer out, assuming it hits one of the track add-ons.

to make a point that Sherman is a great tank mostly not because it has good cannon or protection.

But it does have a good cannon and protection, and even if it didn’t that wouldn’t change anything? It isn’t a special feature, it’s just a feature.

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The thing is that a medium tank being forced to play like a tank destroyer is an indictment, not a defence of your argument. You are paying a higher SP cost for a vehicle that claims to be a medium but cannot influence matches as well. That lack of flexibility is one of the biggest problems in German lineups, especially in inexperienced hands. TDs are not meta in WT for various reasons and it’s likely they never will be.

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ah i missed the point when they changed it from homogenous armor to different type of armor.

Well i doubt using APCR is considered “easilly capable”, but them MD8 APCBC yes. Quite a clear shot most of the time

Again, the fuse makes it shots work bad against track add-ons tho

well it does have decent cannon and some protecion. Not that against KWK40 its protection works well

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TDs are especially good in WT in german tree. Jagdpanzer IVs, 38t, Ferdinands and Jagdpanthers do surely influence games much.

Tho i dont see how panzer IVs being a menace they are cant influence matches

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H is marginally better than G, which is more mobile and H doesn’t have smoke.

Either is food for 3.3 Sherman.
4.0 Sherman sttaight up bullies these, as it can’t be penetrated with any reliability if the hull is angled or sitting on non-level terrain with f.e. 1.5.degrees added to the glacis. But it also bullies normal KV-1. KV-1 1942 has way better turret, so as a pay2win vehicle, of course it’s superior, so lets ignore it for now.

Point is, Pz IV H can’t play like a medium, cause outside of hull front, it’s paper. And even hull front - if you get shot in the glacis, tough luck.

Aircraft will strafe you mercilessly, as Pz IV is an excellent target.
At close range T-34 also has way better chances, though it lacks stabiliser, but the 45mm turret is super bouncy and can casually tank a Jagdtiger while taking 0 damage thanks to broken code. Hull is usually a no-go.

So, what can Pz IV do? Sit back and snipe. Which makes it a worse M10 (M10 fires faster, has tougher turret and way better damage due touch bigger HE filler).

3.7 Chaffee outmaneuvers Pz IVH and 1-shots it easily. What can Pz IV do? Hope chaffe will come from the front at speed and aim for the turret long enough for Pz IV to fire. This assumes Pz IV is stationary. If it’s moving, gg.

IMO if Pz IV H ever goes up, so do Shermans and Chaffee. If it ever goes up, I also hope penetration gets fixed enough so T-34-41 turret doesn’t stop 3 out of 4 (or even 5 out of 6) 75mm shots I fire at it.

Pz IV J is dogshit and I’d happily take Pz IV F2 over it. Lack of turret rotation AND worse mobility for 50mm hull armor. M10 is also better than this one.

And BTW, US players are horrible, so it may not be so obvious, but when playing Italy, that has excellent Sherman Composito (very good turret and hull that can bounce 7.5 cm with some creativity) I feel like steamrolling Germany. And it’s not about any skill gap. I simply know I will aim and shoot faster even vs players that are theoretically more skilled. I have stabiliser, they don’t. My turret moves faster. They have to shoot the right part of armor depending on angle, or guess where my turret weakspots are (I am pretty bad at Ground RB, so I’m using pay2win bushes, which gives me a huge advantage, but certain decorations can do that too) I just have to blast their turret front. And then there’ Italian Chaffee, which I am using in uptiers, as it comfortably does great facing 4.7 tanks, though vs JP IV and Hetzer one has to flank (the horror, having to flank a casemate TD in a light tank equipped with smoke shells and smoke grenades!).

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175

ah i missed the point when they changed it from homogenous armor to different type of armor.

They were never RHA.

Again, the fuse makes it shots work bad against track add-ons tho

No it doesn’t. The L-11 can easily penetrate the turret, even with the track armor. Your grasping at straws.

well it does have decent cannon and some protecion. Not that against KWK40 its protection works well

Is that why you said the M4A2 is the best tank at 4.0, because it only has “some” protection?

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176

they surely were.

As much as i would love to agree with you, i love to club clueless germans with my t-34 1st prototype, so im pretty sure the L11 cant reliably pen the add-on armors. I played just so much so i know what im talking about. You cant do anything to neither IV H addons not even PZ III L ones.

M4A2 is the only sherman with flat hull AND add-ons at the same time up until M4A3 76. Its literally one excemption.
Neither M4A4, M4A1, M4, the Composito have such great protection. All of them are pretty reliably penetrated to the hull and the turret with KWK, even ZIS-5 has no problem with them most of the time.

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75mm Shermans straight up do that scene with edward norton and curb in American History X to Pzr IVs.

I vaguely remember Pzr IV H sharing BR with the M4A1 76mm - straight up better platform with similiar gun. Fun times.

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they surely were.

They weren’t. They have had their own protection values since at least 2020.

Neither M4A4, M4A1, M4, the Composito have such great protection. All of them are pretty reliably penetrated to the hull and the turret with KWK, even ZIS-5 has no problem with them most of the time.

Yeah, but they still have far better protection than the Pz. IVs.

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M4A2 and “some protection”, now that’s a good one, haha.

I use that thing to just rush at KV-1Zis and shoot them in the face repeatedly. I do the same with Composito, which is less armored, but just shows, how insanely tough M4A2 is.
For me, A2 Sherman is a “fast heavy tank”. yeah if I get flanked, I’m dead. But other than that? Outside of HE slingers and AT guns of 85mm caliber or greater + 17 pounder, I fear nothing.

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I play a lot of TDs, and no they don’t, with the possible exception of the JPz IV. Though the more mobile tank destroyers are at least at a smaller disadvantage.

To influence matches, you need to brawl around a cap. That is the meta in WT. You need good mobility, good reactive mobility, good targeting speed, and good reload. Most TDs suffer on at least some of these axes, some on all of them. They are good at getting kills, but getting kills =/= securing map control.

TDs need sniping maps to shine, but the community largely prefers smaller, urban maps. So 8 matches out of 10 you’re better off not spawning a TD, and if you do spawn it, you can do well with it but you’re playing at a handicap, doing things that you could do with less effort and better results if you were in a meta vehicle.

I play them anyway because, as competitive as I am, I don’t want to be straight-jacketed by such a narrow meta. But let’s not be under any illusion about how effective they are. They are extremely situational tools.

I’ve said it before, I will say it again. The combination of poor armour, poor mobility and great gun is an incentive to play the Pz IV at range. Playing at range is how you lose matches in WT on the majority of the maps you will get, because you’ll be far away from caps and you’ll yield initiative to the enemy. It is sadly that simple.

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181

it’s not only about the lineup these tanks are also good and have great 75mm gun at 4.0 is prefect br in my opinion and after playing with them never had issue.

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exactly why i said “some”. In some way, even t-34s are protected better than Shermans mostly.

values maybe, but i do remember the tracks being desrcibed ingame as “homogenous armor”

so the german much protected and well-armed TDs do. I do. Brummbars, Hetzers, JpZ IVs - they designed to brawl

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I do it too, out of necessity. You do what must be done to win. But none of these vehicles with the exception of the JPz IV is good at it or designed for it.

Terrible targeting speed, reload prevents you from pushing alone.

Incredibly easy to kill if you’re not facing a rookie.

Are fantastic. Great frontal armour, good mobility and they turn on a dime. But one exception does not save the whole TD class.

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i do it out of whim

Hard to disagree on that one, tho having poor mobility doesnt make Churchill`s loose games as much. I agree that making a farther dueling is a way to loose, however i dont see why cant you move forward with Germany.

ah thats when i disagree. They usually have good protection and or good cannons.

aim speed isnt that far from JpZ IVs, but them HEs are just great to dea l with any target. Of course such a reload takes some teammates to cover you, tho it doesnt mean it cant be used as an agressive punch to start a push

Ah that depends much on the environment. Its easilly killed with HEs which you need to load first, and before it gets you

Not class, but the german heavy TDs as whole.

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I don’t know if I’m failing to explain myself or if you’re skimming my comments, so let me put some emphasis on what I actually said.

An incentive.

Individually, if you forget the match as a whole, the Pz IV does better at range, so you (especially if you’re inexperienced) are tempted to play it like that. However, if you are an experienced player, you know that most of the time, the team that sits back and snipes is the team that loses. So, you do just like you said, you push forward with whatever vehicle you have.

However, the Pz IV is not good at brawling. You can make it work anyway, but it will be less competitive than some of its competition. It’s that simple.

Given the very limited traverse angles, you’re mostly aiming with your hull, and the JPz IV turns so well that it’s much easier to get the gun on target. The flat ballistics also mean it takes you less time to aim. The slow vertical guidance both vehicles share is a much bigger handicap for the ballistics of the big donk HE.

I love the Brummbar but it isn’t meta at all.

I feel like a broken record at this point. Yes, it can be used, but we’re not talking about what can be used, we’re talking about competitiveness. You can brawl in a Jagdtiger too, god knows I’ve done it, but you’d be better off in a meta vehicle.

War Thunder follows the 80-20 rule. 20% of the team does 80% of the work. If you want to win consistently, you have to be able to do everything. Planes in the sky? You gotta shoot them down. A whole flank is empty because the team ignored it? You have to go there. A cap needs contesting before tickets run out and no one’s pushing it? You have to do it yourself.

If you’re in a vehicle that can allow you to do most or all of those things, you will win more often. No doubt about it. That’s the definition of “meta”.

Tank destroyers are fun to play, but they are much more limited.

I have something like 3k matches in the Jagdtiger alone. It’s fun, I love it, it’s my special autism machine. And yet, I must tell you, almost every time I spawn it I find myself thinking, if I’d spawned the Tiger II instead I would be having an easier time killing the same opponents and I would be able to carry the match much better.

What’s fun, what can be used in a pinch, and what’s competitive are very different things.

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