You cannot take physical dimensions as the mere standard for estimation. The efficiency of rocket engine and trajectory design would also matter a lot.
The designer of PL12/SD10, Liang Xiaogeng, mentioned in an interview that the maximum shoot range of SD10 and AIM120 are measured at 10km altitude and 1.2 Mach speed for both carrier and target aircrafts while the claimed 100km range for R77 is measured at 20km altitude and 1.5 Mach. When using the same test standard, the range of R77 would be =<70km, on par with or even worse than SD10/PL12.
In this regard, even the claimed 110km range of R77-1 is probably exaggerated as well.
And also note that even the export version of PL15, namely PL15E, is labled with a max. range of 145km by AVIC.
So yeah if someone still insists on this two having similar performance … Well, good luck.
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The devs openly talked about how a better skin is coming for the plane and its own unique model, so don’t worry about that.
In 2015, PLAAF had a joint excercise with Thailand. PLAAF sent J11A while RTAF sent JAS39. J11A was severely defeated in the reports from western media. The truth, of course, is more complicated. In a 2019 lecture at Northwestern Polytechnical University by Li Zhonghua, one of the best test pilots of PLAAF, it was revealed that the J11A suffered mainly from its relatively outdated BVR capabilities. Most (86%) successful attack attempts made by J11A is done in the range of <30km, while the other 14% are all done in 30-50km range. PLAAF noted in this lecture that the maximum shoot range of AIM120C on JAS39 is 80km while for R77 on J11A it is only 50km.
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God can the people who wanna make this a Russia vs China pissing contest please just go somewhere else? This is a thread that should be dedicated to productive conversations about the J-11 and it’s variants for china
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The developer of the PL-12 allegedly said this, but it is not true. We can prove the AIM-120 does 74km from subsonic launch (0.9 mach) at a 0.9 mach target from 10km.
Likewise, the same situation for the R-77 yields closer to 80-100km.
The R-77-1 is a longer missile, more aerodynamic with more motor in it. At the test conditions that the R-77 receives 80km range the R-77-1 has 110km range.
The PL-15E is an export version of the PL-15 with less range, 145km is expected. The PL-15 is rumored to be a dual pulse motor (boost-boost, or boost-sustain-boost). Other missiles that were modified to dual pulse doubled their range (Such as MICA-NG).
So it is expected they might fit a normal single pulse boost-sustain type motor in the PL-15E and leave the dual pulse for the domestic model and the range figures match.
Discussing more so the ranges that they were detecting each other. The Su-27 is a huge aircraft with 15m2+ radar cross section versus the Gripen with less than 3m2, the Su-27 also has the worse radar for these types of conditions.
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Indeed. It is also mentioned in that lecture that the radar interception distance for J11A against JAS39 （with 1.5-2 m^2 RCS as claimed in the same lecture）is only 30-35km.
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I think the conversation had already concluded, recommend instead of butting in just sharing useful information on the J-11, like the fact that it’s underperforming in sustained turn rate at 700 km/h by ~0.5G currently (2 deg/s sustained turn).
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@DracoMindC did the report for this beast.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/NnsJ3fscrl7R
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They showed a lot of things there…or you misunderstood…
- Ballistic missile range in Soviet/
Russian documents are never indicated…because additional documents indicate the Limit value for the complex restriction "GOS + engine + power supply ) … That is, the rocket can continue to fly, but only in the form of an unguided dummy … - In the Soviet/Russian documents indicate the Launch Range under standard conditions ( Hц=Нн=10 км и Vц=Vн= 1100 км/ч , пуск в ППС ) …
- The range is not “measured”, but according to the formation of the “PR” signal by the Weapon Control System (SUO) of the fighter (Launch is allowed)…
4.For all missiles(Chinese/Russian/American and so on)…When launched into the Forward Hemisphere (PPS), the range of the missile will, of course, be less than the launch range, since the target itself flies towards it…
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Back on topic, why on earth would the J11(Not a) be heavier by 570kg? I wonder what sources Gaijin are using for this
The J-11 is a SU-27SK (multirole) so parts like the landing gear and fuselage are reinforced. It would’ve made more sense to add the J-11A and introduce the more modern RWR as a counterbalance to the slightly worse flight performance.
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Yes and no.
The J-11 wouldve gotten better engines too which also meant a higher TWR than the russian counterpart.
Quite honestly I am fine with it as the J11 and its subsequent variants just clap Russian 27s from here on out.
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Hope it gets acknowledged, appreciate your work!
That’s not true, there will be an equal to the J-11’s up until the point they are equipped with AESA radars and the J-16’s EW capabilities are modeled… for war thunders’ current state of things they will not be very much superior.
It’s not a bug, we made some errors in the testing.
This also applies to the F-16A and F-16C and guess which one is the better dogfighter? The one with the weaker engine but the lighter airframe.
I’d still prefer the J-11A for a more unique variant for China so its not a copy n paste of the Russian SU-27S.
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In this case, it will be necessary to add the Su-27SM to the Soviet tree…
In fact, they will do so because they promised FOX-3 missiles, and the Su-27 and J-11 cannot use them…
The J-11A is not something unique because it is generally a Su-27SMK/Su-27SM…
"…The project of such modernization was proposed by Russia and the People’s Republic of China in 2003. An improved version of the fighter, the Su-27SMK, could be implemented both during serial construction and in the process of refining previously built J-11 fighters.
It was proposed to carry out work on the transformation of Su-27SK aircraft into the Su-27SMK variant in two stages. At the first stage, the fighter was supposed to receive a fuel receiver for an in-air refueling system, as well as new detachable wing parts that allow the car to be equipped with outboard fuel tanks and having two additional external suspension units. The armament was planned to be supplemented with medium-range missiles with active radar guidance RVV-AE…"
Further developments in the first stage of the Su-27SMK program were used in the modernization of the Su-27SK and J-11 fighters into the J-11A variant, carried out in China with the help of Russia…
J-11: N001 radar (engage one target at a time, detection range ~110km), old monochrome radar scope,AAM= R-27ER, R-27ET.
J-11A: N001VE radar (engage two targets simultaneously, detection range ~120km), two color MFDs in the cockpit,AAM= +R-77.
J-11B: PD radar Type 1493 (engage 4 target simultaneously, detection range ~150km),featuring 5 MFDs and a new wide-angle holographic HUD,AAM= PL-8, PL-12, PL-15.
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A new-ish cockpit for the J-11A, new engines and a modern RWR is something which in my book makes the J-11A unique compared to the SU-27S or other Flanker variants (compared to Russian counterparts).
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You are confusing the J-11A with the so-called J-11A MLU (J-11A of late mass production)…
At a later stage of production, China solved the incompatibility problem that existed earlier, and the flight instruments were upgraded accordingly, so the two displays on the J-11 were replaced with one multifunctional LCD display surrounded by control keys on three sides.The original Russian radar warning receivers have also been replaced by the more powerful Chinese Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS). A total of 105 J-11s and J-11As were built when production ended in 2007.
WS-10 engines initially began to be installed on the J-11B in 2009…Since the J-11A is still in service, it is possible that WS-10 engines were installed on the J-11A during the planned repair…
1.You are trying to contrast the J-11A MLU (2007-2010) Su-27 (1985 model)…
2. It will not be so-there is a Su-27SM /Su-27SM3 (2003-2010) -they will have AL-31F-M1 engines (13,500 kg/s) and a modern RWR L-150 Pastel of one of the latest variants…
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