I will confess that I know absolutely zero about tanks, less so about the ammunition (although even I know that APHE is the most hand hold bullsjit to exist) and when somebody tells me to use HEAT I tell them to shut up as it’s practically summertime.
So to you that can count all of the screws in a Tiger tank can you tell me if this “shell shattering” on add on track armour is historical? I decided to play the Comet last night and even the add on armour on the side of a Jagdpanzer can stop an APDS round with over 200mm of penetration from less than 100m. To begin with I thought this was lag or a bug but no it’s most certainly the way the game is programmed with how reliably it happens.
It’s kind of a slap in the face when the only in game advantage of solid shot is the “high penetration!” when you can’t penetrate a damn tea bag if a track is slapped against it. Meanwhile they fire back with physics defeating death orb cannons.
I’ve got a replay of two close range shell shattering moments I can upload for those interested… one shot on the UFP of a Jagdpanzer and another on the side. Exact same tank one shot after another at extremely close range.
So to you that can count all of the screws in a Tiger tank can you tell me if this “shell shattering” on add on track armour is historical? I decided to play the Comet last night and even the add on armour on the side of a Jagdpanzer can stop an APDS round with over 200mm of penetration from less than 100m. To begin with I thought this was lag or a bug but no it’s most certainly the way the game is programmed with how reliably it happens.
Had this happening in a game the other day too.
Also using the comet, had the APDS shatter on the side of a tiger 1 turret with the tracklinks from perfectly perpendicular at roughly 400m.
Then had another shot shatter on the return roller wheel of a KV-1 also perpendicular around about 400m away.
Which interestingly enough does not happen in protection analysis or in testing in custom battles with someone.
Could not get it to shatter at either of those two spots.
the loading screen tips actually says that, something like " protection analysis is done not taking in count vehicle movement/speed and something else "
This is a fine example of what we call the Britain tax. Because British players are so far superior to everyone else, they need to nerf us in some way, and it isnt enough to just put all of our vehicles at higher br’s than they deserve, they also have to make it so that one in every 5 shots we fire simply doesn’t work as a handicap.
Well, considering that you are playing Britain, it’s pretty useless yeah
So,let me explain here.
Early-generation APDS (from the Comet through the Cent Mk. 3 if i recall correctly) are considered Gen.1 APDS. Those shells were made with not-very-good materials (such as Tungsten Carbide),meaning that they offer incredible penetration but at the same time they really hate any armor that is slightly inclined or is complex (armor+tracks). i.e. the shell shatters because it is so fragile that thick plates makes the shell’s head be rotated 90° upwards,thus breaking it.
Gen 2 and more APDS remove this problem because they are either made with advanced materials (such as Tungsten Alloys or Depleted Uranium) and/or are composite (so made with more materials)
With this in mind,treat every early-generation APDS like a glorified APCR: super high pen but doesn’t like anything that isn’t flat or simple
That’d be true if I didn’t mainly play for Britain… It’s so infuriating though and I could almost swear British rounds are gimped. I’ve had some seriously questionable bounces with the 17lber against Tigers and even the previously mentioned Jagdpanzer.
The fact that they also model shell shattering but are too afraid to realistically nerf APHE without a “vote” first says everything to me. We both know the German/American playerbase will scream no in this upcoming vote and nothing will change. Just do it Gaijin if they scream they’ll have to adapt like we’ve had to.
I wouldn’t have an issue if I were shooting at a Panther’s UFP though or anything like this. I’m talking about the weak side armour of a Jagdpanzer with a 200+mm round speeding its way, the armour underneath is as flat as it can be.
I don’t know if the Centurion with the 380mm pen rounds are gen 1 or not… but they’ll shatter on the literal side armour of a Jagdtiger (no track armour off memory). If I can I’ll upload some videos I have tonight or tomorrow so you can see exactly what’s going on.
I had an interesting one last night where my 380mm pen APDS bounced off of the rear of a Jagdtiger at point blank… no engine damage nothing… “shell shattered” it was so bad that even the other player apologised for it haha. Good man whoever he was.
Everything you mentioned is angled, although slightly. When i say “it doesn’t like anything that isn’t flat” i really mean it,early APDS are reliable against hard simple flat surfaces. Then there are the server issues etc. etc.
Shell shatter was a real thing, and occurred because the material of the shell was too brittle to withstand the impact with armour. This typically occured with very hard penetrators at very high velocities that should have guaranteed penetration.
There are academic works on the phenomena - eg https://apl.unob.cz/dymado/DA/419 (which is a bit concerned with modern ceramic armour)
There were 2 basic times when this happened in WW2 - firstly in the Desert - when up-armoured Pz 3J’s arrived they had a hard 30mm additional armour on their front, and British 2 pdr shot shattered against at ranges when it “should” have penetrated.
The 2nd was with US 76mm shot in 1944 - again the high velocity shot would shatter against Panther armour when it was expected to penetrate.
The effect was (is) affected by slope and the T/D ratio of shot caliber vs armour thickness
There were 2 solutions -
1/ lower velocity projectiles - but this is a bit counter productive.
2/ add a softer “cap” to the very hard penetrator - this spreads the load of the initial impact over a wider part of the penetrator than just the tip, so there is less force per unit area and the penetrator doesn’t shatter - this “cap” is the “C” in APC - Armour Piercing Capped
First-gen APDS. For the USA,the only First-gen APDS are the M331A2 (found on the M41A1,the T92 and the M551-76),the M392A2 (found on the M60 and the premium Magach 3) and the T279 (found on the T54E1 and T54E2).
Every other APDS/APFSDS the USA has is advanced (so the M728/M735/M774/M833/M900 for the 105,the T320 for the T95E1,the XM885 for the HSTV-L,the XM578E1 for the MBT-70/XM-803,every M829-series for the 120mm Abrams and the KE-W and finally even the APDS and APFSDS belts you can find for the M3/M3A3 Bradley and ADATS), meaning no shell shattering (or the probability is extremely low)
the sho’t apds shell shattered on a t44’s turret cheeks , btw it was pretty accurate shot from point blank range and sho’t apds has 383mm of pen 🔥🔥, i love this game consistency at being inconsistent
Moeeep.
I think the thing with the armor with the penetrating power of the grenades is actually quite okay in the game.
my biggest criticism is that here ww2 and cold war vehicles are thrown together in a battle that don’t fit together. also the thing with the captured vehicles is not good.
here are the current sim tank lineups:
we could now write huge novels about what should be changed…
in short. it would be absolutely possible to change these lineups in the long term so that everything fits better and more sim tank drivers are happy. in addition, all lineups should run in parallel.
…my additional personal criticism is that the modern russian tanks are too good in the game. in reality the whole world sees how the russian tanks fail. but that’s another topic.
