The R-24R is worse when paired with the MiG-23MLs radar.
There is no way the F-4J(UK) should have the same BR as the Tornado GR.1/IDS (1995)/IDS ASSTA1 and Su-25T/39
The SU-39 and SU-25T sit at that battle rating due to their missile loadout, having the ability to carry the R-73/E is pretty huge and are practically a guaranteed kill at cold aspect.
The Tornados also have the AIM-9L which can be used for orbital striking blind base bombers or people hyperfixated on your teammates. Both the SU-39/25T and the Tornados have long range all aspect missiles which make their battle ratings semi justified.
The Skyflash is a horrid missile which fails to kill targets from 20kms in most situations and the R-24R is simply much better.
The missile is going to feel horrid if you use it outside of its optimal parameters. Both the Skyflash and R-24R is best used under WVR range given their short motor burn time. Being faster at altitude helps the range a bit but it will be a struggle to get hits outside the optimal range.
F-4S has AIM-7F which can easily reach 20km hits due to its very long burning sustaining motor. You can’t just expect different missiles to perform the same.
The R-24R is nonetheless a effective tool for getting consistent kills every match, my newish friend who bought his way up using the MiG-23ML gets a consistent 2 to 3 kills with ease and most of his kills unironically being F-4S players.
AIM-9Ls working well against blind base bombers and hyperfixated players really isn’t the selling point you think it is and even though I hate the R-73, it isn’t a big deal on the Su-25/39 at all
The missile is going to feel horrid if you use it outside of its optimal parameters. Both the Skyflash and R-24R is best used under WVR range given their short motor burn time
The Skyflash is a AIM-7E-2 with a monopulse seeker, it has 11.0 level of range and yet is compared to the R-24R lmao. Longer range engagements are still common and especially at 12.0+ and having the inferior SARH missile can change a planes performance entirely.
The MiG-23MLs radar is way easier to defeat than the F-4Js. Neither of them work well in long range engagements.
I’ve used the SU-39 a bit ago and the experience with it was pretty good, I managed to do a 1 vs 3 against a F-4S, a F-14 and a Mirage F1C but this plane surely has to be bad, right?
The SU-39/25T also has the R-60M so they got a decent missile count of 4 which isn’t that bad for 11.7 and not to mention their IR jammer at the tails end.
Strikers aren’t meant to be fighters so don’t even bother comparing them to such, you are just cherry picking to make an example and a bad example at that.
The R-24R has IOG and doesn’t go for chaff immediately, if you continue to hold radar lock then the R-24R can guide itself to the target for a decent amount of time. IOG can improve how a missile feels significantly but that isn’t something we should mention is it?
R-24R is not a BVR missile in realistic scenarios. Skyflash and R-24R has similar range. When shot at the same time and distance, R-24R can reach a target sooner. This mostly due to high drag of the Skyflash after the motor stops burning. The PD radar being much superior than MTI radar balances this.
After the MTI rework, Mig-23 can only maintain a solid lock if they are high compared to the target with ground as background. This puts them at a disadvantage since they can’t use multi pathing to defend when the target can easily do it. If you are at the same altitude or above the mig-23 without ground as your background, you can easily break the radar lock with chaff since the mig’s radar is forced into SRC mode (not MTI mode).
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While the missile is in IOG, you can easily escape it just by changing your path. IOG is when the missile can’t see you and goes based on memory. This is something that you should do when defending from any CW guided radar missile.
R-24R is not a BVR missile in realistic scenarios. Skyflash and R-24R has similar range
The R-24R is a much better overall missile than the Skyflash, it has better acceleration and range whilst being harder to detect on most American RWRs. The thing you continue to bring up is the aircraft carrying the R-24R which is the MiG-23, after the MTI nerf it has been harder to maintain lock once someone chaffs and this is true.
But you are also forgetting the fact that the R-24R itself has a monopulse seeker, it can continue to guide itself if you continue to maintain lock but this only lasts for a small amount of time (probably around 5 to 10 seconds).
they can’t use multi pathing to defend
You can’t really multipath missiles unless you’re flying over a really flat piece of land or over water. Most maps have sudden change in elevation making it more dangerous to hug the deck whilst a missile is flying hot towards you.
break the radar lock with chaff since the mig’s radar is forced into SRC mode
You can also easily notch the radar of the F-4J/S? I’ve evaded countless of AIM-7Fs by notching, it honestly isn’t that hard and this applies to all aircraft so don’t act like its only the R-24R which can be defeated.
R-60Ms are the least reliable missiles you can have at that BR and I can count the amount of times I actually didn’t manage to kill a Su-25 because of the jammer on one hand.
The Phantoms have a very similar ground attack capability as the Tornados and a better one than the Su-25T/39. Strike planes and fighter planes may follow different design philosophies, but the Phantom is a fighter-bomber, not a pure fighter. It is fair to compare it to the Tornado, as it is a fighter-bomber too.
The F-4J(UK) performs better in almost every single way when it comes to air to air combat and very similarly when it comes to ground attack performance. The strike Tornados should always remain at a lower BR than the F-4J for that reason.
Every radar missile is modelled as if it had a monopulse seeker, that is a moot point
R-60Ms are the least reliable missiles you can have at that BR and I can count the amount of times I actually didn’t manage to kill a Su-25 because of the jammer on one hand
Stop with the silliness, if it had only R-60Ms then I’d agree but it also has R-73/Es. It’s quite literally just additional missiles on top of the already existing great missiles.
Wrong, the AIM-9C for example doesn’t have a monopulse seeker and so doesn’t the Matra 530F. The Matra 530F is a lot more rough as it can be found on the Mirage F1C/F1C-200.
Right, I should have said every CW guided missile has a monopulse seeker ingame. The R-24R having a monopulse seeker still doesn’t matter as the Skyflash has one too.
The R-24R having a monopulse seeker still doesn’t matter as the Skyflash has one too
I quite literally mentioned that a short while ago, the R-24R can temporarily guide itself into target for a bit and this applies to all missiles with a monopulse seeker and this is additionally buffed with the feature of IOG.
The MiG-23ML/MLA/MLD is still a useable aircraft and especially when compared to the UK Phantoms, they should both sit at the same battle rating of 11.7 unless something is changed.
The MiG-23MLD especially, that thing is a monster when compared to any UK Phantoms and saying otherwise is just a bit silly.
The UK Phantoms should not sit at 11.7 as they are more capable than the MiG-23ML/A/D, the Tornado IDS’, the Su-25T/39 and Kfir C.2
Maybe in another universe, the real question should be why should the MiG-23ML/MLA/MLD sit at the same BR as the SU-39/25T, Tornado and C.2?