Russian top tier tanks need a fair buff

[IHаteCAS]

@FV4005-Enjoyer

Imo, Russia is probably one of if not the best nations in top tier,

Not really.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

with actually a large amount of highly competitive tanks in top tier.

Last I checked 1 semi-competitive tank isn’t a large amount.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

the recently buffed T-72

Which one? The B3? Still pretty bad at 11.3 because the BR change didn’t change its flaws.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

the new T-72B3A

Joke of a tank, an 11.3 at 12.3.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

the T90M

A terrible vehicle that’s been fearmongered out of this universe.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

and then you could probably make a case for the T-80U

No.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

All of those tanks have crazy over performing ERA

That saves them once in 20 times.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

insanely good guns

Some of the worst firepower at their respective BRs.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

looking at you, T-72 at 11.0

The 11.0 T-72s still have an incredibly awful reload. Tanks with better firepower can be found at lower BRs as well.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

and not bad mobility

Here’s a mobility chart

Spoiler

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The drawback of the reverse speed is almost nullified by the fact that once hull down, in a few of them you are un-killable, and also shouldn’t really be over extending anyway.

The only RU tanks with good turrets are 90A and 90M, and they HEAVILY struggle to go hull down. Reverse speed is also 100% an issue no matter what map you’re on.

You haven’t played these RU tanks, so I wouldn’t think you’d know.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

Sure they might sometimes perform bad, but remember other nations have it worse.

No nation has it worse in terms of tanks. Having played all 10 nations, RU’s tanks are at rock bottom.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The Abrams has an a-historical turret ring and basket

And yet it is still the best or 2nd best tank at every BR its at.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

the leopard should technically have a 3-4s reload when aced

What the fck. NO.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

the Type90 should have a marginally faster reload

No. Terrible for the game.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

and the challengers should have much better armour than present at the moment.

They’re not lacking much armor, just spall liner coverage.

[IHаteCAS]

@FV4005-Enjoyer

I am uncertain as to which T-72 it is, but one was recently buffed, and also moved down in BR at the same update, i believe it was one of the ones that is now at 10.3

No. It was the T-72B3 that went down from 11.7 to 11.3.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The T-72B3A has no justification to go anywhere below 12.0, let alone 11.3, it has an extremely strong turret, a really good round (Keep in mind there are nato tanks with worse rounds, at higher BRs), and better mobility than a lot of its peers.

What? Lmfao. Its turret is pretty trash and its worse in tank vs tank than T-72B3 which is at 11.3. Also, better rounds are found at 11.7 on M1A1 for example. You have not a damn clue what you’re talking about.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The T90M is actually really good, sure it might be overhyped but its still exceptionally strong. It has really good frontal armour, with the exception of the LFP it its pretty much unkillable from the front to anything it faces with APFSDS.

I’m sure you would know, considering you haven’t played it.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

No, the russian tanks do not have weak guns. The 3BM60 is extremely strong, and is a lot better than a lot of the tanks it can face.

No? As I said, M829A1 is found at 11.7, DM53 at 11.7, M829A2 at 12.0, the list goes on.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The 3BM60 is about 20mm better than that, and is present on russian tanks at a low a BR as 11.0 meaning it has better rounds than tanks 1.7 BR above it. Keep in mind, it also has a strong ATGM.

M322 is found at 10.0 with 590mm of pen. Do you think that’s OP? The ATGM is useless aside from overpressuring.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The 11.0 T-72 is probably one of the best tanks at its BR, not questions about it. It has a good round, an active protection system, Good optics, good thermals and sure, the reload might not be optimal, but its still pretty good, especially considering its a-historically buffed.

I’m sure you would know, as you haven’t played it. The reload is not a-historically buffed, its a-historically NERFED. Its a horrible tank, being slower than the likes of the Challenger 2 OES.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

See how on the speed chart you linked, every single British tank is ranked at the bottom (Bar the 2e)?

Not my fault the British can’t design a fast tank.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

See how, there are Russian tanks which outperform nato tanks, for example the T80BVM is faster than the Leopard 2a4, 2a5, m1a2 sep, strv 122aetc etc?

The T-80BVM has mobility worse than 2A4, on par with 2A5, and Abrams/Leo only lag behind by 1s.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

Actually, a lot of russian tanks have good turrets when compared to tanks like the Challenger 2 and 3, the Abrams series and the ztz series.

Completely false.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

A lot of other nations do have it worse actually, the british, the french, the italians and arguably the chinese to name a few. The challenger has terrible speed and no armour to make up for it, the leclercs are made of wet cardboard, the arriete is paper thin with no speed to make up for it, and the ztz series is like poking holes through a peice of cloth.

France, Italy, and China are definitely better than Russia. The Brits are the only ones who have it worse really, and i’m glad because British players are probably worse than US players in terms of being completely insufferable.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The abrams is only good because it has an exceptionally good round, take it away theres nothing left.

Turret armor? Mobility? Ammo stowage? Gun handling? Reverse? Utility? Shell types? Sights? Gun angles? The list goes on.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

There is actually clips of the leopard and abrams crews, at there absoloute best, (which is what aced is btw) reloading in under 4s. I cannot find them now, but with enough effort im sure you could.

Those are training sims where the gun does not have to reset to a loading position, set to a firing position, includes lap loading, and the blast door is also left open. Not a good example. The Leo 2 manual literally states the loading time for Leo 2 being 8.6s or 7 shots per minute.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

You said I have not played russia, but I have. My other account for my other house is something like, (this was having a jab at my south african friend) ‘ihatesouthafrica’. Check it if you want, I have 12.7 russia.

Sure. So we’re admitting to TOS breaks now.

[IHаteCAS]

@FV4005-Enjoyer

See, here you read my post, saw a lot of my points, and then didnt even acknowledge them?

I did but oh well.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

Your point on the leopard taking 8.6s to reload, seeing as your arguing that im sure you know that for a russian tank to reload, at any degree of gun drepression or elevation it has to reset to 0, which can take a second or two, and to switch ammo types it can take 13s +? The russian 6.0s reload is unreasonable, as on average it should either have to make you reset any gun depression or elevation, or haver to take upwards of 7-8s

My point was not that Leo should take that long to reload. My point was that reload is a balancing factor. The 6s reload is also not unreasonable, and cycling/shell types would be a pain in the butt for both manual and auto loaders. The elevation reset is already accounted for in a lot of our AUTOLOADER reload times, like on Type 90/10, T-72s/90s, and T-80s i’m not sure. Leclerc should also reload in 6s as quoted by GIAT, but it reloads in 5 in-game for balance.

[H_ngma]

@IHаteCAS

Not really

Genuinely if not russia who then? The only other trees with the same competitiveness across the entire spectrum of top tier ground are France and Japan. All the others are lacking in one way or another.

[FV4005-Enjoyer]

Is france really that competetive? I don’t have france personally, but it seems like every time I play against them, they get clapped by even weak shells like the L26. The leclercs seem to be made of like, carboard, and the EBRC jaguar has become basically obselete with the addition of the bmpt. It seems to me that the only reason france is good is because the players are.

Japan is good, ill give you that

[IHаteCAS]

@H_ngma

Genuinely if not russia who then?

France, USA, Sweden, China, and Germany have better top tiers if we disregard the playerbase.

[Necrons31467]

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The T-72B3A has no justification to go anywhere below 12.0, let alone 11.3, it has an extremely strong turret, a really good round (Keep in mind there are nato tanks with worse rounds, at higher BRs), and better mobility than a lot of its peers.

Going by these comments I’m now convinced you’ve never played the T-72B3(A).

T-72B3A should’ve been 11.7 on release, at 12.3 it’s quite possibly the most overtiered MBT across any nation at top-tier.

Your justifications for keeping it overtiered make absolutely no sense on any level:

1. Turret armour is identical to a T-72B '89 which sits at 10.3 and it still incredibly mediocre. Clearly that’s not a reason to keep it above 11.7.
2. 2S25 at 10.0 has 3BM-60 and also isn’t anything special, again, not a reason to keep the vehicle above 11.7.
3. Sabra Mk.I, M60 120S, M60 AMBT, etc. are all vehicles with superior penetration (and reload) compared to the T-72B3A whilst they are sitting at significantly lower BR’s.
4. Mobility of the T-72B3A is bordering on poor. Almost everything at or below it’s BR is significantly more mobile, that includes a 10.7 T-80B or any of the T-80U derivatives. I have no idea what gave you the false impression that the T-72B3’s are actually highly mobile MBT’s.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The T90M is actually really good, sure it might be overhyped but its still exceptionally strong.

More evidence you’ve never played these vehicles.

T-90M is among the absolute worst 12.7’s in the entire game and there’s no reason why it should be a higher BR than an M1A2.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The abrams is only good because it has an exceptionally good round, take it away theres nothing left.

Now I’m convinced you’ve never touched an Abrams either.
Why are you commenting on all of these vehicles which you know nothing about?

If you reduce an M1’s penetration it’s still one of the most mobile MBT’s in the entire game with the shared best gun handling characteristics and the 2nd fastest reload.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

for example the T80BVM is faster than the Leopard 2a4, 2a5, m1a2 sep, strv 122aetc etc?

Refer to the chart I linked above.
T-80BVM has average mobility. The only reason the T-80BVM ends up in the left half of the chart is because I happened to rank it based on acceleration to 45 km/h.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

My other account

Firstly: Breaking EULA, could end up with both accounts banned.

Secondly: Ah yes the classic ‘‘My other account’’ excuse.

Thirdly: Everything you’ve said so far indicates to me you’ve not played these vehicles, otherwise you would not have been so poorly informed on all of them.

And lastly: Let’s assume for the moment I believe the claim, that account has a T-90M with a 0.7 K/D and 0.68(!) K/spawn ratio. Yet here you are trying to tell me the T-90M is incredible?!

[UNN_Daedalos]

you are setting yourself up for disappointment

truth be told, if you really know what you are doing, reverse speed does not come into play that often, and if it does, it means you usually screwed up seconds ago

[IHаteCAS]

@UNN_Daedalos

truth be told, if you really know what you are doing, reverse speed does not come into play that often, and if it does, it means you usually screwed up seconds ago

Completely false.

[UNN_Daedalos]

France has the second best CAS and a SAM on par with the Buk

Other than that Leclerc are decent but nothing to write home about, and Jaguar is just very sotuational

So i would tend to agree @H_ngma , it’s solid in every category, but not stellar in any particular one

Jack of all trades, master of none kind of situation

[Necrons31467]

@UNN_Daedalos

reverse speed does not come into play that often

The player that claims reverse speed doesn’t come into play often has never played high tier Russia.

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you! /s

[UNN_Daedalos]

A first shot will usually disable the engine or the driver rendering your reverse speed useless

If it doesn’t, chances are you were in hull down, in which case russian tanks are mostly safe, and 4s (in case you are against a japanese tank), are enough to retreat behind a hill

Someone getting caught with its pants down and relying on reverse speed usually forgot to properly use the binos beforehand though.
Personal experience of course, but i did not notice it changing my gameplay all that much, from vehicles with great reverse speed (Leclerc, Jaguar) to the ones with poor reverse speed (T-55A, T-62, AMX-13s)

[MokaMoki]

Russian tanks are fine as they are. Their ERA over-performs and damage to the turret ring doesn’t prevent turret rotation like hitting an Abrams or Leopard does. They don’t need any nerf but they certain don’t need a buff.

[FV4005-Enjoyer]

Yeah thats probably true. I’m around mid teir at the moment, is there any real justification of going past there is it not worth it in your opunion?

[IHаteCAS]

@UNN_Daedalos

A first shot will usually disable the engine or the driver rendering your reverse speed useless

The first shot will usually kill you.

@UNN_Daedalos

If it doesn’t, chances are you were in hull down, in which case russian tanks are mostly safe, and 4s (in case you are against a japanese tank), are enough to retreat behind a hill

Not before a half decent placed shot to your turret roof takes out your breach and a crew member, and the next time this happens it will be fatal.

@UNN_Daedalos

Someone getting caught with its pants down and relying on reverse speed usually forgot to properly use the binos beforehand though.

Ragebait.

[UNN_Daedalos]

At least go for the oscillating turrets if you don’t have those already, they are very good, top tier is fine and EBRC can be fun i will say, but you need to be careful with it

@IHаteCAS

The first shot will usually kill you.

In which case reverse speed doesn’t matter either, so thanks for proving my point i guess

@IHаteCAS

Not before a half decent placed shot to your turret roof takes out your breach and a crew member, and the next time this happens it will be fatal

Easier said than done, especially if you use your entire -5° depression

@IHаteCAS

Ragebait.

No, just simple logic

That’s the issue though, WT is basically a giant game of cat and mouse or hide and seek game, you have to be a rat to survive…

It seems those mainly playing russia are so used to their armor that they don’t bother with these basic things though, and it shows : the moment the map is a wide open field with plenty of places to be sneaky, it usually doesn’t bold too well for them.

Would be interesting to have each nation’s win rate depending on the map, come to think of it

[IHаteCAS]

@UNN_Daedalos

In which case reverse speed doesn’t matter either, so thanks for proving my point i guess

Guess what allows you to avoid this scenario entirely? A good reverse gear. Why get shot when you can just reverse?

@UNN_Daedalos

Easier said than done, especially if you use your entire -5° depression

Huh?

@UNN_Daedalos

That’s the issue though, WT is basically a giant game of cat and mouse or hide and seek game, you have to be a rat to survive…

It’s not… but to object, NATO tanks do this better with their superior mobility, gun angles, and reloads, allowing them to “rat” more effectively and take out more targets in a shorter timespan.

@UNN_Daedalos

It seems those mainly playing russia are so used to their armor that they don’t bother with these basic things though, and it shows

And it shows in them blowing up nearly every time they get too bold or when they need to retreat. Armor isn’t meta. Its only good to have when you don’t sacrifice in nearly every other category.

[H_ngma]

Classic „russia players are just built different“ legend

[Necrons31467]

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The T-72B3A should be 12.0

11.7*

M1A2 is superior to it yet sits at 12.0.

And I’m well aware that the M1A2 is undertiered, but even if the M1A2 were moved to 12.3 it’d still be superior to a degree that the T-72B3A should not be only 0.3 BR removed from it.

The T-72B3A’s mobility, firepower and survivability are all below average, with it’s gun handling being average and survivability being well below average.

The T-72B3A being 0.4 BR removed from an Strv 122 is the equivalent of a Challenger Mk.2 being 0.4 BR below a T-80U-E1.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

Using Gaijins own logic, from putting the challenger 2 BN a whole BR higher as of getting an active protection system

The Black Night’s APS intercepts APFSDS, the T-72B3A’s APS does not.
Let’s not pretend that these vehicles have equal active protection systems, because they don’t.

The T-72B3 Arena has nearly the same APS and sits 1.3(!) BR below the T-72B3A. The difference in mobility between them is only enough to justify a 0.7 BR difference, not a ridiculous 1.3 BR difference.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

It also gets Kontact 5, which is a lot better than its predecessors.

That comment makes no sense on any level.

• The T-72B3A does not get Relikt (bags) unlike it’s predecessor. That makes it worse, not better.

• Many, and I do mean MANY of it’s predecessors use Kontakt-5, that includes the T-72B3, T-72B3 Arena, T-90A, T-72B '89 and T-80UD, all of which sit at lower BR’s.

• And even if we lived in a alternate universe where it’s predecessors did not use Kontakt-5, that still wouldn’t be a justification to have it be so grossly over-tiered.

I have a common saying and it seems to be applicable here too: ‘‘Poor/inexperienced players can be easily identified by them overrating the importance of armour’’.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

I think the 89 should be at about 10.7 not 10.3

Sigh… Of course you do.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

The turret, […] and is inpenetrable to some weaker rounds like the ones present on the challenger and type 90 b fuji.

This is of course nonsense.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

When played to its strengths,

It has none that stand out at 12.7.
There is not a single reason to play a T-90M over a equal BR Strv 122 or Leopard 2A7HU/V.

Mobility? Awful.
Gun handling? Not any better than it’s 12.7 peers.
Survivability? Okay-ish, but not better than the aforementioned Leopard 2 variants.
Firepower? Literal worst at 12.7.
Armour? Still not better than a Strv 122.

The only thing it has is armour, and that’s still largely pointless because people will simply one-tap you via the usual weakspots.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

abrams […] have a weak aced reload

???

@FV4005-Enjoyer

However, the abrams suffers from a-historical nerfs like the turret basket

Meanwhile, the T-90M sitting on a powder keg isn’t seen as a massive drawback?

@FV4005-Enjoyer

When naming the account,

You’re not allowed to have two accounts.

@FV4005-Enjoyer

A lot of people playing the T90 dont kow how to play it to its strengths

Need I remind you of the 0.7 K/D and 0.68 K/S ratios?

Your (assuming they are yours) stats indicate the T-90M is atrocious, which perfectly aligns with what I’ve been saying.
It’s a vehicle that does not suit the meta whatsoever and should’ve been lowered to 12.0 ages ago.

[H_ngma]

Yeah France has an LDIRCM heli, good CAS, good spaa, hard to use but hop tanks.