Russian or Chinese Tanks - Which ones are better (Historical Example)

Not too long ago there was a border clash between Sudan ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ฉ and South Sudan ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ธ.

South Sudan ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ธ had T-72AV tanks which they acquired from Ukraine and were trained to Ukrainian standards. Sudan ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ฉ on the other hand had Chinese Type 85-IIM tanks.

The end result was, 4x T-72AVโ€™s were destroyed whilst the Type 85-IIM tanks suffered no losses at all.

Potential reasons for this outcome:
โ€ข Superior Fire Control system on Type 85-IIM
โ€ข Superior Ammunition from Chinese than what Ukraine would of supplied
โ€ข Potentially it could of been an ambush
โ€ข Better armour on Type 85-IIM which is further important if the South Sudanese had inferior ammunition.

I donโ€™t think it was crew experience reason. The South Sudanese were trained up to standards and already slaughtered Sudanese T-55 tanks and Type 59 tanks initially beforehand, which resulted in Sudan bringing in their best tanks in the first place.

Generally tanks are not alone in any real battlefield. If thereโ€™s any reliable sources on this event, it would be pretty good to know what other units were involved. Was there any sort of artillery/aircraft support, mines, simple old cannons with sufficient firepower, dudes with missile launchers? What about other technological advantages not related to the tanks?

The 85IIM can be said to be the prototype of ZTZ88C, which in turn is the prototype of ZTZ96. At first, 85IIM was used for foreign trade, but later was selected by the Peopleโ€™s Liberation Army to be modified as ZTZ96/96A/96B. However, 85IIM did not undergo significant modifications during the process of becoming 96, and except for fire control, everything else was not significantly different from 96. It can be reflected in the game, but due to the fact that 85IIM is not equipped with ERA, there is no situation where T72AV cannot penetrate it. The 125 gun of 85IIM is almost the same as the 125 gun of 96, and the 125-I is enough to penetrate T72AV. So I think itโ€™s more likely to be an ambush, and I donโ€™t rule out that in the event of an encounter, due to the more experienced members of the Sudan, the tanks fired faster than those of South Sudan, the 125-I can also penetrate the front of the T72AV. Therefore, the claim that the protective performance of the 85IIM is superior to that of the T72AV is not reliable. However, due to the small difference between the 85IIMโ€™s artillery and the 96, the fire control of the 85IIM is not as good as that of the T72AV, so the two can be considered on par in terms of fire control.

3BM-22 is insufficient against Type 85-IIM / ZTZ96

T-72A โ€œ83โ€ is 340mm KE vs APFSDS (real life)
With K-1 Roughly 358mm KE vs APFSDS (real life)
Type 85-IIM has 380mm KE hull protection

We know that from tests 3BM22 could not even defeat Leopard 2A4 hull rated 350mm KE so it ainโ€™t going through Type 85-IIM frontal armour unless itโ€™s the lower plate.

125-I on the other hand can penetrate T-72AV anywhere it wants to.

Big player here will be the fire control system which makes aiming and hitting targets on the move much easier whilst itโ€™s all manual on T-72AV.

The 3BM22 is indeed unable to stably penetrate ZTZ96, but the protective performance of the 85IIM is not as good as that of the 96. The turret and composite armor of the 96 have been re modified, and the composite armor of the turret and body of the 85IIM has been replaced with the new 683 composite armor. Moreover, the 85IIM still uses manual loading, while the T72AV uses an automatic loader.

Actually according to my primary sources, the hull and turret composite of ZTZ96 is identical to Type 85-IIM

The source is about Type 85 tank and it shows 683 composite for both the hull and turret

Infact the composite add on for Type 88 is also the โ€œ683โ€ and this tank is older than Type 85


But itโ€™s mounted on leaving the front forward hull edge still weak rather than welded to the hull with the composite covering the front edge of the upper hull as well

This is the โ€œ683โ€ composite

Which means that in WarThunder the hull of ZTZ88B and ZTZ88A should also be 380mm KE vs APFSDS, not just 320โ€ฆ because itโ€™s identical to composition on ZTZ96

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