Russian MBTs: Firepower and Protection versus NATO counterparts

[UniqueScorpions]

With the blast doors open… in the ideal setting… you could crank out a 5ish sec reload. As I’ve said. But WT is anything from a relaxed setting.

I’m starting to think this account and @MiG_23M are the same person, since you respond at pretty much the same time, and your backing him up like you owe him your life or something.

@MiG_23M

@UniqueScorpions

But a pebble will hit the T-90m in game and it’ll explode I swear.

I am constantly one shot in my T-90 series tanks, the only tanks that I cannot consistently one shot are the Abrams or Leopards. This is consistent with their design philosophy and somehow they still fail to perform well enough to counter the Russian tanks. Why?

Is this so? We’ve all seen a certain video where a certain T-90M ate 2 ATGMs, 2 drones, and a slew of 25mm.

In game I don’t think everything is 1:1 with reality, which as you said, it’s a game. But then why is it okay if I’m in my t-90m, a high angle shot can pierce the lower plate, magically bounce off the floor plate, then head perfectly into my carousel loader and I go boom? That’s not very real, that dart would’ve gone out the floor of the tank. Meanwhile you preach realism about an abrams reload that isn’t real.

@MiG_23M

@UniqueScorpions

Clearly you missed “with the blast doors open”
So if it’s open, and you have a 5.2 sec combat load (which would be fair in game), if the ammo is struck, the whole tank is gone.

Consistently ignoring that it was a 5s reload simulated with a closed blast door

1/16 of a sec isn’t very well simulated your honor. If your still in, get a better angle, and a proper combat load, we’ll see your time then.

[MiG_23M]

@UniqueScorpions

In game I don’t think everything is 1:1 with reality, which as you said, it’s a game. But then why is it okay if I’m in my t-90m, a high angle shot can pierce the lower plate, magically bounce off the floor plate, then head perfectly into my carousel loader and I go boom?

It’s not magic that most modern MBT’s have a 90% one hit pK against the T-90 in both real life and the video game when aiming center mass. The only difference is that in the game, if the breech is what is hit it just stops the rest of the round.

@UniqueScorpions

1/16 of a sec isn’t very well simulated your honor. If your still in, get a better angle, and a proper combat load, we’ll see your time then.

I think you might want to re-time that and consider the time it takes for the ammo door to open less than 1/4 the way…

And for the love of all that is holy please just quit coping already we’ve gone several hundred comments and you’re still unwilling to admit you’re wrong when it’s been proven seven different ways from Sunday.

[UniqueScorpions]

Ah yes In game Russia must clearly be biased yada yada yada.

If you even look at your own video you pause for roughly 0.17 secs then your right hand comes up to reach for the round.

If it’s so repeatable, just repeat it. It’s a scientific experiment right? Experiments should be repeatable.

[MiG_23M]

From knee pushing in the switch to hand reaching past the barrier where the door would lie is 0.63-0.75 seconds in the video, quit lying to support your fragrantly false position.

Additionally, to fasten the pace I could have done the following;

• Hit the knee switch at the same time as I safe the gun, rather than safe → knee switch with a slight pause between.
• Slammed the round on the breech and slid it in instead of carefully handling the dummy round
• Paused for less time as it doesn’t take nearly 1 full second to open the door 1/4 the way for the first row of ammunition.

All of this being said doesn’t change the fact that the round was still loaded in under 5 seconds in a very straightforward and casual manner.

This is almost as fun as discussions with flat earthers.

[VF111_Sundowners]

@UniqueScorpions

I can’t tell you how often I saw false information, incorrect data etc in the military. The whole “buddy system” for the rifle range is a great example. People in the pit will generally put up a 3 even if you missed. So yes, there is 100% some bias in every aspect.

I mean I did this to avoid having to call over a verifier to verify a complete miss and usually is more attributed to bias when you’re trying to help your buddy get expert.

Did you ever work with tanks? Because every time we did tank integration classes before CAX/ITX or MCREE they would show a slide and mention the standard for 1st tanks was a 5 sec reload… they would then ask why this was to see if us grunts knew and the answer was always the same “to beat Russian autoloaders”.

So we have multiple branches on top of a DOD study corroborating a reload time of around 5 secs. What exactly is the issue here ? Do you not believe someone who is currently in this MOS that 5 secs is easily achievable and sub 5 is easily possible ? There’s multiple former and current Abrams crewman on this forum alone that can verify what Mig is telling you, why is this so hard to believe?

[UniqueScorpions]

If you read my comments, I did say top loader could most likely achieve around a low 5 sec reload. But the average from video, people I know, etc, is usually hovering between 5.75 and 6.75, obviously there are some outliers.

But he is claiming he can do it in under 5 secs, which I could see for a lap load most certainly.

But war is not an ideal condition, unless your stationary in an ambush position. Thus it makes no sense abrams, Merkava, etc ( pretty much all manually loaded tanks) have a 5 sec reload, on the move, at full speed hitting jumps, whipping around corners etc.

Especially since many people like MiG, claim certain reload rates for certain tanks, it is not 1:1.
Like I said earlier, there is a bunch of T-80U model tanks that have an incorrect reload of 6.5 secs, instead of their real life 6.0 sec reload… yet that’s not in game. Because it’s a balancing thing.

Which comes into tank efficiency. Playing the T72B3 vs the M1a1 click bait (only abrams I have, and a buddy bought it, then I got the squad one).
When facing enemy opponents in the T72B3, 75% roughly were USA tanks, which aimed directly at the upper hull center mass. And didn’t try to aim for a weak point. (Keep in mind the T72B3 is kinda slow.)
But if I was playing my abrams, most shots were either straight to the gun, or I’d be hit in the lower plate, killing the driver.

I distinctly remember playing a match where it was like Leo 2a7s were falling from the sky, my engine was out, I was down to 2 crew, and I was still magically out loaded everyone (this was a late start game), I managed to kill all the spawn campers, take the hill (map where A is at a ruined castle), score 8 kills with 2 crew, keep on driving until I got a cap and and a few assists giving me a nuke.

[MiG_23M]

@UniqueScorpions

If you read my comments, I did say top loader could most likely achieve around a low 5 sec reload.

Novice* as shown in documentation. 10 loaders mean reload rate was 5 - 5.3 seconds including on the move and with the old brass shells without combustible cartridge cases.

[UniqueScorpions]

So clearly that document needs an update, or rather the test needs to be redone. As the fact of many videos disproving the opinion: “that the abrams has sub 5 or consistent 5 sec reloads”

But you never even commented on the T-80-U, U, UM2, UK, UD, or BVM having the incorrect reloads.
That’s at minimum 6 tanks that do not have a correct reload. They have a 6.0 sec reload irl, in game it’s 6.5 secs. Why is that hmm?

[MiG_23M]

@UniqueScorpions

So clearly that document needs an update, or rather the test needs to be redone. As the fact of many videos disproving the opinion: “that the abrams has sub 5 or consistent 5 sec reloads”

All relevant documentation and tests would still be classified to my knowledge, it is more than apparent and Gaijin has seen more than enough evidence to support 5 second reloads for the 120mm equipped Abrams. This is reflected in the fact that they made the change.

@UniqueScorpions

But you never even commented on the T-80-U, U, UM2, UK, UD, or BVM having the incorrect reloads.
That’s at minimum 6 tanks that do not have a correct reload. They have a 6.0 sec reload irl, in game it’s 6.5 secs. Why is that hmm?

Can you show a 6.0 second reload with the gun leveling and then returning to the target? I have not researched the topic as I primarily focus on air reports. If you have the documentation and whatnot to support a faster reload I’d be more than happy to help you make the report. I very much doubt you have any evidence at all based on our current conversation.

[UniqueScorpions]

“However, the autoloader itself is capable of loading a round and returning the gun to aim on a target of the gunner’s choosing in only 6 seconds if the gunner chooses not to change ammunition types, so the maximum technical rate of fire is actually 10 rounds per minute. A translated cyclogram of the steps in the loading cycle is presented below”

This cyclogram comes from the document "Автоматические Системы Заряжания Вооружения Бронетанковой Техники " (Automatic Gun Loading Systems of Tanks) published by the Russian Ministry of Defence, 2011.

T-80

Another source depicting a 6 sec reload even for the T-64B as well. With the longest being if the auto loader is turned to manual and it’s take a round from the furthest placement in the autloader , the longest load time would be 13 secs, however in automatic mode (T-64B, T-80, T-90 and newer) the loading is all done already, unless a new round type is required.

Capacity 28 rounds of any type
Min. cycle time 6 sec (ATGM - 7.5 sec)
Max. cycle time 13 sec

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/al-80.html

Cyclogram data supports a 6 sec reload, from two entirely different sources. I’m sure I could find more, but this is was a Quick Look up.

[UniqueScorpions]

@MiG_23M

@UniqueScorpions

So clearly that document needs an update, or rather the test needs to be redone. As the fact of many videos disproving the opinion: “that the abrams has sub 5 or consistent 5 sec reloads”

All relevant documentation and tests would still be classified to my knowledge, it is more than apparent and Gaijin has seen more than enough evidence to support 5 second reloads for the 120mm equipped Abrams. This is reflected in the fact that they made the change.
Can you show a 6.0 second reload with the gun leveling and then returning to the target? I have not researched the topic as I primarily focus on air reports. If you have the documentation and whatnot to support a faster reload I’d be more than happy to help you make the report. I very much doubt you have any evidence at all based on our current conversation.

So if it is classified they’d have no idea of what the reload is. They changed it to give the USA players a better chance.

Also such a lack of faith. But there you are good sir.

[AK_Awful_Waffle]

@UniqueScorpions

This cyclogram comes from the document "Автоматические Системы Заряжания Вооружения Бронетанковой Техники " (Automatic Gun Loading Systems of Tanks) published by the Russian Ministry of Defence, 2011.

Thats some supreme irony to quote the Russian MOD as a source while admitting to ignoring a DoD/DTIC report because it dispells your argument.

[AK_Awful_Waffle]

@UniqueScorpions

So if it is classified they’d have no idea of what the reload is. They changed it to give the USA players a better chance.

There’s atleast one open source report stating that 5.3 during testing was the average……

[UniqueScorpions]

Oh I’m going by your metrics. If we are assuming both to true, then 5.3 secs for abrams, 6.0 for T-80s

But again, that’s if we are truly believing these documents 100%

But considering the auto loader will always reload at exactly the same rate, vs a human loader, I am more apt to believe the auto loader. Since they can go thousands of rounds before breaking down. The US military saw this first hand when they acquire a T-72

[AK_Awful_Waffle]

I would agree. 5.3 seconds for a novice crew, based on the reports is a good starting point.

And an aced crew firing from the ready rack would be understandably faster.

[AK_Awful_Waffle]

@UniqueScorpions

Since they can go thousands of rounds before breaking down.

You very obviously have never seen Russian/Soviet QC or maintenance practices.

[MiG_23M]

@UniqueScorpions

“However, the autoloader itself is capable of loading a round and returning the gun to aim on a target of the gunner’s choosing in only 6 seconds if the gunner chooses not to change ammunition types

Okay, so has it been reported? It looks like that cycle can be streamlined by moving gun on reload button press rather than waiting for the carousel to find the desired ammo type first as well as some other things.

I recall someone claiming the 3BM60 round cannot be stored side-by-side thus would increase the reload rate of the gun more than 6 seconds in the case of the T-80BVM. The length of the rods means they do not fit side-by-side and thus the T-80BVM should also not be able to bring a full load of 3BM60 either.

@UniqueScorpions

So if it is classified they’d have no idea of what the reload is. They changed it to give the USA players a better chance.

Just because the documentation is classified does not mean it is impossible. I’ve done it on video for you already.

@UniqueScorpions

Also such a lack of faith.

So much irony.

@AK_Awful_Waffle

Thats some supreme irony to quote the Russian MOD as a source while admitting to ignoring a DoD/DTIC report because it dispells your argument.

^^^

@AK_Awful_Waffle

There’s atleast one open source report stating that 5.3 during testing was the average……

Yes, but this was for the more complex loading procedures required for the 105mm gun. The 120mm gun has a combustible cartridge case and a lever instead of the swing arm in front of the breech seen on the original M1.

The brass case of the 105mm guns takes longer to eject and then subsequently it takes longer to safe the gun before the following round is re-loaded as compared to the 120mm where the stub base of the round is ejected before the gun is even fully recoiled. As soon as the lever is thrown down (reach-able while also pressing the knee switch), a new round can be loaded.

[UniqueScorpions]

So aced abrams 3.0 secs reload? Definitely 100% on board. Sure…

[aDSD]

You dont need these lol, take the official soviet cyclograms from official manuals instead, they have 6 seconds for all T-80/64 MZ style autoloaders. Only time they have different reload is T-64/80/B/BV loading ATGMs, in which case reload time is 7.1 seconds, just like in game

[UniqueScorpions]

@MiG_23M

@UniqueScorpions

“However, the autoloader itself is capable of loading a round and returning the gun to aim on a target of the gunner’s choosing in only 6 seconds if the gunner chooses not to change ammunition types

Okay, so has it been reported? It looks like that cycle can be streamlined by moving gun on reload button press rather than waiting for the carousel to find the desired ammo type first as well as some other things.

I recall someone claiming the 3BM60 round cannot be stored side-by-side thus would increase the reload rate of the gun more than 6 seconds in the case of the T-80BVM. The length of the rods means they do not fit side-by-side and thus the T-80BVM should also not be able to bring a full load of 3BM60 either.

@UniqueScorpions

So if it is classified they’d have no idea of what the reload is. They changed it to give the USA players a better chance.

Just because the documentation is classified does not mean it is impossible. I’ve done it on video for you already.

@AK_Awful_Waffle

Thats some supreme irony to quote the Russian MOD as a source while admitting to ignoring a DoD/DTIC report because it dispells your argument.

^^^

• it has been reported, but as gaijin has said before, reloads are flexible for all tanks.
• I have not seen any info in regards to that being the case for the T-80BVM.
• you haven’t done it on video. You’ve done it in ideal conditions. Can you not read? I’ve said that many time now. Now you’re just trolling.
• reads one message, not the other, literal bias and trolling practices.