The FOV isn’t that small, it doesn’t get tightened down to the level of something like an r73 or magic 2. It has to get to within a couple hundred meters before it is close enough to just not see any chaff, at which point you’re already dead so it wouldn’t make a difference, because if you haven’t notched it yet you don’t have the time to do so anymore. Also the fov isn’t really a hard limit on how far it can see like on IR missiles. On a radar missile like the amraam, it has a angle of half sensitivity of 15 degrees. That means there is a gradient from 100%-50% on how well it can see a target from 0-15 degrees, and beyond that, it is still a gradient to go from 50%-0% On the Mica, its angle of half sensitivity is 7 degrees. So it takes less time for chaff to get far enough away from the plane to have a smaller return than the plane.
Also, this isn’t what you were originally saying. You said that you need to get into a more precise angle, not chaff more frequently.
I am confused about what your point is. It was you who brought up the FOV
If you notch the mica, dropping 1 chaff should be enough to put it into IOG mod because he sees both jet and chaff targets with similar closure and goes into IOG to avoid biting into the wrong target (because chaff will have more return without PD filter).
More chaff won’t necessarily make a difference unless you don’t get away from the IOG prediction and stay in a precise notch.
If we are talking long range at altitude, often you need to spam more chaff because its hard to keep an exact notch for a long time. (this is why I don’t bother with notch and chaff unless the missile is already near, like less than 10km, or I will be stuck in the notch for more time and need to chaff more)
It was my understanding that the mica had more sensitivity to closure rates, but you pointed out that it was wrong, and I went to check the missile spreadsheet, and that seems to be the case since they apparently share the same “closure related values” as the other missiles
So… From my understanding till now, the different sensitivity on the mica would mean that it will lose interest in chaff sooner than the other missiles, which is why you need to be more precise with your notching (to keep the PD filter on the missile useless). Which spamming a bit more chaff might help to avoid that because you have more chances to chaff when you correctly position yourself in the notch. What do you think?
I think they said they plan on reworking missile physics Soon™ which might help with higher altitude shots/lofting missiles.
only the AIM-7 and R-27 for now
pheonixes also got a reword there iirc
That’s because that’s the difference that makes the mica “harder” to notch, and that’s what I was explaining, because you had said that a more precise angle is needed, not more chaff.
Yes, and what I was explaining is that the difference between the mica and other ARH missiles is that you need more chaff to keep it in IOG so you can defeat its angle gating than other ARH missiles.
It seems to me that after my first reply we started to develop a misunderstanding of what the other was saying.
This is where I might still be misunderstanding what you are trying to say. More chaff does make a difference, because if you don’t chaff enough, it is able to switch from IOG to TRK quickly enough that no amount of changing speed/altitude will defeat the angle gating. (also I think you meant to say “do” not “don’t” when talking about the IOG prediction)
Sort of yes. You don’t need to be more precise with your notch angle, you just need more chaff because of it losing interest in chaff faster. And if you are notching, spamming chaff does not make it more likely you deploy it in the correct angle some of the time. If you leave the notch angle at all while it is close enough to enable angle gating, then it can just switch the PD filter back on and start ignoring your chaff. The notch angle in WT is actually pretty wide so it’s pretty easy to stay in the proper angle.
There is one exception though. At long range, it is unable to turn on angle gating, so it will bite off on the first chaff you deploy so long as you are at the right angle. So if you are in the notch and you see the missile start to slide backwards on your RWR, that means either A. the missile bit off on your chaff and you can recommit, or B. the missile no longer has the energy to reach you, so you can recommit
Yes. The phoenixes already got theirs (not sure if the fakour is included in that or not) and the AIM-7 and R-27 are next
yes but the AIM-7 and R-27´s are the only ones who have it currently planned
Unless I am wrong, the 120D only has GPS as the difference between the 120C-5 in game
I think it should have a different flight profile and be less copy+paste. The addition of GNSS allowed for a more aggressive loft profile
Also it should be able to DL reconnect, I’m not sure if that was a balancing decision by Gaijin to not add that feature to ARHs
"Our Future Plans
This update will introduce the technical ability to change lift coefficient based on Mach number. It increases at subsonic speeds, drops sharply at transonic speeds, and gradually decreases at supersonic speeds. The first missiles to be simulated with this physics feature will be the AIM-7 and R-27 series missiles. We’re currently working on refining their flight models to bring their drag, thrust, and maneuverability data closer to real-world counterparts, and plan to release these changes after the Heavy Cavalry major update.
Mechanics for changing lift coefficient based on speed will be added to all missiles in the game in the future, and we will keep updating the flight models of various bombs and missiles based on your reports and emerging data, while simultaneously implementing various new mechanics for older missiles.
That’s all for today! The Heavy Cavalry major update is coming soon, and you’ll be able to try out the updated missiles for yourself."
I think it might also have a slightly longer guidance time before self destructing
This is why I said I don’t bother trying to notch and chaff at long ranges, missiles can reaquire/course correct for different reasons (datalink, accidentally get out of the notch…) and I am just wasting my time being defensive, so I wait till the missile gets closer before I go full defensive.
There is a sweet spot between long ranges where you need to keep spamming chaff because you can’t avoid the “FOV” + IOG at such ranges, and the short ranges where you have no time to get away from the IOG + proximity detonation.
Chaffing more is just a way to make it more likely to chaff in the correct notch angle, especially when there is a lot of stuff happening, like multiple missile RWR returns, the missile making a wide turn for you, and changing its relative angle to you, which will change the notch angle you need… etc
Well the thing is, notching at long ranges is actually easier because it does not enable angle gating until it gets closer to you. So the missile will bite off on first chaff you drop, assuming you are in the correct notch angle. It’s just at that range, the radar sidelobes are large enough to still alert your RWR even when it is locked onto your chaff. And at close ranges, the only limitation on whether or not you can notch the missile is whether or not you can pull into the notch angle and change direction to defeat the IOG in time. The FOV isn’t small enough on any ARH missile to keep the chaff from entering the seeker’s view until they get so close that you might as well be dead anyways.
It’s easier, but you need to keep your notch angle for a long time compared to shorter ranges, and usually requires more chaff because the missile usually keeps being corrected by datalink again and again
okay i didnt remember the last part,
but yeah the 120D is literally just a C-5 with better guidance and two way datalink/GNSS(which is technically represented ingame via GNSS) they could only maybe make it loft differently
(or buff the seeker but the only reports for that apply for all 120 versions, and there isnt info on the 120D seeker specifically iirc)
It’s actually kinda the opposite. At long ranges. you just have to stay in the notch angle until you see the missile sliding back on your rwr. At that point, you are far enough away from the chaff it is locked onto that you won’t be within the missile’s radar scan angles anymore by the time the chaff disperses and the missile can’t lock it anymore. And even if the plane that launched it kept you on DL, the missile won’t have the energy to turn back for you.
At short enough ranges for angle gating to be active, you have to stay in the notch until either the missile passes you, or you can see the missile bite off on your chaff.
2 way DL is different than just GPS. Right now missiles basically ignore everything except their own seeker once they go pitbull in WT. 2 way DL allows them to track much better if the targeting aircraft maintains lock. Less susceptible to notch/chaff/clutter because the 2 radars work together(missile and jet) It is also the feature that allows DL reconnect
-if I understand correctly, missile stuff gets complicated :D
yeah but they represented 2-DL that way, and it does help a lot when you keep DL with the missile
but i gotta be real the 120D was always gonna be kinda a nothing burger only D-3 couldve changed something actually kinematic´s wise
since most buff the amraam could receive are family wide
This is assuming the missile is not datalinked to the radar. At long ranges, especially if you are not pushing whoever is launching at you, they will keep radar guidance. At shorter ranges the missile will more often than not, ignore datalink corrections, so I don’t have to waste as much chaff, or time defending.
Datalink only helps the missile counter notching on targets down low where it cannot disable its PD filter because of the ground clutter. On a target up high, the missile prioritizes what its seeker sees over everything else. So once it locks that chaff, it will completely ignore what datalink is telling it until it either passes the chaff, or the chaff disperses.
Most missiles that come from long range will be higher than you, even if the enemy is lower, the missile will be lofting, and usually people descend to lower altitudes while defending to make the missile bleed speed.