fully agree!! assuming you have a BP task counting kills this is very disappointing when a kill is “deleted” by a collision. Ok, on the other hand the new system grants more kills than before…
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Yeah, it’s great we can get two frags (one partial and one full) from one enemy now.
But the devs could just tweak the old system: change the nameplate color or severely damaged planes from grey to orange and give the player who finished severely damaged plane a partial frag. In my opinion that would make even more sense (and give more rewards) than this new system. But yeah, I know this wouldn’t fix “the dead plane just killed me” issue.
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A new mechanic after 12 years and all this discussion. Has this been an issue for 12 years?
On paper - just for this specific match.
As soon as a game tries to offer a kind of realism which allows delayed deaths of enemies (and this is reality in aerial warfare) you have discussions “who gets the kill” - as the actual kill is relevant for several player rankings. And wt is a plain shooter and all shooters are measured by kills and are driven by rankings / competition.
And despite wt and irl are not connected - the same discussion was held at lest ~ 85 years in the past. That’s why you find shared kills in allied kill claim lists.
Unfortunately this new mechanic is flawed like hell and is not suited to end this discussion as it was aimed to solve other issues.
That's how prop Air RB is played by kill driven players:
Just imagine you have a nice 1 vs 1 dogfight somewhere near a map border - and finally you score an oil-/water cooler hit on your opponent with an inline engine - 25 km away from his base. He won’t make it back to base, the number of remaining players, the game timer and the ticket counter gives no sign that the game will end soon - and you remember that you saw somewhere near an enemy dot or marker in the clouds.
As your enemy was an excellent pilot you can try to finish him (using the rest of your ammo) with the potential risk that he scores a lucky shot on your own oil-/water cooler or you get jumped by the second enemy. So by sticking to a mortally wounded enemy you increase your energy and positional disadvantage vs the other - so you extend/disengage and try to improve your positioning.
The usual suspects in the player community / your team (spectating this from afar) saw in the battlelog your crit on your first opponent and will wait until the second enemy engages you and try to score a cheap 3rd party kill whilst you distract him - and will farm the guy with an oil-/water leak either later or upfront his “support”. Hardcore guys will wait until you are almost dead (or at least critted) to score the 50 SL for “fighter rescuer” or until you are dead to get the 150 SL “avenger” reward.
As long as gaijin is unable or unwilling to declare the first enemy as dead (by determination that his engine will die long before he is able to reach a base) you will have discussions as there are always people trying to benefit from your efforts with the lowest risk for them.
I get this overall but in order to solve a crime we have to turn detective so I am asking ,when did this whole S*** storm become an issue? I dont recall having much of a problem when I started this game 3 years ago but was that because I was too focused on being the whipping boy?
Im asking genuinely when this became an issue. Was it always an issue or did a fairly recent update make it into one?
I play around 7 years and team kills as punishment for kill stealing was common practice. You find in the old forum for sure stuff from 2013 dealing with the same issue - kill allocation. You find a nice summary of stuff related to kill stealing in this thread, also referring to 2013:
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When was this chage about kill stealing?
Still feel like current system is more aligned with a grinding mood :
being KS’ED still gives more than single assist
Finishing an ennemy is not over rewarded anymore (not a full kill for something that was unable to fight)
Permits more squad plays while reward more the people within the squad.
“change”
The discussions are mainly about kill allocation / rewards for assisting in kills. Kill stealing is a direct consequence if the allocation is not working properly - team kills are more than often caused by kill stealing.
But i agree, we have separate thread for this:
https://forum.warthunder.com/t/severe-damage-did-nothing-to-fix-kill-stealing/84776
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Thanks Uncle J, just trying to see if this was a recent update that made this an issue.
With tanks its whoever gets the last shot I guess and everybody else is an assist maybe. Often we are all going for the same guy.
Sometimes I am annoyed that somebody came in and took “my kill” but a dead enemy is dead enemy and sometimes I appreciate the help when I am flagging out there, Im awaiting the mercy blow and my enemy blows up,nice.
I know the AC mechanic is different but last hit on a target is just that and often so much is going on that its hard to know who got what.
Personably I would remove team kill from the game except SIM especially if needle over this causing team killing. Its a stupid idea anyway for planes.
I find the air games so silly and over so soon that I am amazed it’s even an issue and I find it a shame that its all spilled over into GRB where I live .
I wish Gaijin would separate the two.
What is it about then?
Gaijin likes to break things when something else needs fixing, i only asked because there is no offical statement as to why and it was not too long ago they added the black dead plane mechanic.
I do find planes are hanging around longer with no wings attached which can be a bit of a distraction as you keep an eye on hoping your team leaves it alone. I liked it best when it turned black, not many knew it was stil worth something but it was difficult to finish off
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Hot topic, imho off-topic therefore hidden
Regarding air games being silly - it depends mainly on the quality of players - and up to 2019/2020 you needed actual skill in Air RB - all changes since then were aimed to reduce the required skill level to participate. That’s why you see whole lobbies of Mach 2 capable fighters bombing bases…
A very good and/or tight prop match in Air RB lasts often 20-25 minutes, some years ago we had 1 hour matches - with epic battles. The short duration of prop matches on average is caused by tankers/non-pilots flooding the mode - not all, but the newer generation. Either they base bomb and die or they perform point and click headons - no skill, strategy or tactics…all leading to snowball effects so you play either 8 vs 2 or 2 vs 8 after 6-10 minutes. But nothing better to win 1 vs 5 by smart game play - rare, but it happens.
And frankly spoken: Imho this whole new mechanic is caused by masses of tankers killed in Ground RB by dead (=kill feed dead) planes as they stopped firing on incoming planes after they saw the kill message - and not by the few Air RB noobs getting killed by a jet with just one wing…mainly as they were unable to keep the necessary level of required awareness.
Same here - The team killing/friendly fire for tanks vs tanks is disabled as too many (insert iq related assessment) guys are playing tanks - somehow gaijin insists on teamkills/friendly fire being realistic for Air RB. Detailed written in the old forum.
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I feel like I’ve explained this dozens of times, but let’s try again.
In general, severe damage mechanics already existed in the old system, it was just named “destruction”. So basically if you e.g. teared off the wing of the plane in the old system, it was counted as a destruction and you received a full kill credit (with 100% kill score and 100% kill rewards). There is one major exception from this, which is an engine damage, that was considered a critical hit in the old system, now it’s severe damage.
Destroyed (severely damaged) plane in the old system looked like this:
Spoiler
If someone decided to finish this enemy, he would get an assist without a kill credit (67% kill score and 25% kill rewards).
In the new system the situation changed and right now this plane is considered “severely damaged”.
Severely damaged plane in the new system looks like this (pay attention to the nameplate color):
Spoiler
The person who severely damaged the plane in the new system only gets a partial kill credit (that counts for tasks and challenges, but doesn’t count for service record). That person also receive partial rewards (80% kill score and 80% kill rewards).
If someone else decide to finish the enemy in severe damage state he receives full kill credit (that counts for tasks, challenges and is also counted as a kill for service record). That person also receive partial rewards (40% kill score and 40% kill rewards).
So you can easily figure out in the old system both players could gain much more combined score and slightly more rewards from one enemy (167% kill score and 125% kill rewards) than in the new system (120% kill score and 120% kill rewards). Also the full kill credit changed from the person who severely damaged the plane (in the old system) to the person who finished it (in the new system).
Both systems are actually pretty similar. The old system was much easier to understand in my opinion, the new system is much more complicated, because it’s much harder to figure out who is severely damaged and who isn’t (the nameplate keeps the same color).
And I’m not even including critical hits problem in these calculations. Because in the new system the devs removed most critical hits. In the old system you would get a critical hit every time you caused a severe damage or finished the enemy. All these critical hits are gone in the new system (we are not sure if that’s a bug or not). The problem with this is, the critical hit is worth about half the assist (to be exact, one critical hit is worth 33% kill score and 10% kill rewards). These missing critical hits are actually something that I miss the most, because I could gain even 10 critical hits per battle before, now it’s at most 2-3. So you can do the math to see how much score and rewards I lose in each battle due to this critical hit change.
There are also many other issues this new system caused, by keeping “dead” planes alive for longer. You can read about them in this topic and in the previous severe damage topic. These problems are not easy to fix, so they will likely remain in the game.
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you can spam dozens of times,… this doesn’t changes FEELINGS OF being rewarded accordingly
I do miss crits i think they should be given to any control surface and iteams such as radiators, landing gear, fuel tanks, radar, gunners
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So basically you prefer to get 80% of the kill score, 80% of the rewards and a partial kill credit (that is not counted in your service records) in the new system than 100% of the kill score, 100% of the rewards and a full kill credit in the old system for doing the exact same thing?
Your way of thinking is absolutely amazing. Congratulations!
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Now he is only getting 40% 😆
A long time ago making any part black was always a critical hit, so it was easy to figure out critical hits. Some time ago they changed this system in Ground battles and they removed some parts (like optics) from this rule.
I saw a theory that the devs actually decided to nerf critical hits in Air battles now (and used this new system as an excuse). This is just a theory, so I don’t know. Considering they still didn’t “fix” critical hits in Air battles, it’s possible they will never do this.
If you include critical hits, in the old system finishing the enemy was counted as a critical hit (33% of the kill score and 10% of the kill rewards) and an assist (67% of the kill score and 25% of the kill rewards). In the new system it’s 40% of the kill score and 40% of the kill rewards. So even here it’s not a clean improvement, because previously you could gain 100% of the kill score and 35% of the kill RP/SL rewards and now 40% for both.
This is also why we lost so much score with this new system, but the rewards are not that different (they are still lower, but this is more due to the lack of additional critical hits).
You also have to keep in mind, the devs could easily just add a partial frag to the person who finished the plane in the old system. But they decided to redesign the entire system in such a way that some people are so confused that they are very happy that now they get less for the same thing.
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I prefer to 80 over 50 yes…