RESEARCHABLE heavy tank for Italy please

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
,
43

Dude, most tanks at the period had only around anywhere between 8mm’s meant to tolerate machine gun fire up to something such as 25mm’s, to possibly 35mm’s. A 75mm, short or not with 50 mm that is angled mind you. So its thickness is greater even with the bolted/welded effect. hat does not change the fact that it was still well-gunned and armored for 1940. You are also comparing a tank to something that has a greater industrial capacity. Rather than other tanks from or within its period.

KV-1 was produced in 1940, and its armor varied from less than 110 to 120. Later becoming thicker. So it’s 1939 and early 1940 designs. To go back to the P40 Heavy Tank’s main gun, the 75mm could penetrate 70 mm of armor at 500 meters. Mind you 500, in-game that’s 66. However, the HEAT shell penetrates around 100 mms.

So the gun is still powerful enough to tank one down. Nevertheless, it will perform fine, against other tanks it would be fighting, however, do I believe it should be 3.3? No 3.0 at best.

Now do I think Italy shouldn’t get more heavy tanks? No, however, I do find it rather difficult to see Italy having many options for heavy Tanks that weren’t exported from other countries. Except the Hungarian Sub Tree which helps a lot.

44

Yeah, there should be a researchable heavy tank for Italy. The question is though - what?

Hungary used the IS-2, so they could receive one in the Italian tree. However, this is not only unoriginal, but also, the IS-2 simply isn’t very good. It’s a glorified meme tank since it’s overtiered and inferior to its contemporaries at the BR where it is now. It could get moved down though, so that depends. They also captured an IS-1 during WWII, and if Gaijin wishes to add a Romanian subtree, they captured an IS-2 as well.

Speaking of Romania, Wikipedia says they captured a Tiger I, but I can’t find any more about that. They did also use Panthers post-war. It’s not a heavy tank technically, yes, but it could help.

There is one final option - the P43. I’m not so sure about this since it’s a paper tank and never progressed beyond the smaller-scale mockup stage as far as I know. However, there are tanks and planes in game already which were at a similar stage or maybe even less, such as the Ho-Ri Production, which to my knowledge, is completely fake. So, this one depends on what Gaijin is willing to do here.

45
  1. Ok, then surely by New Zealand’s industrial standards, even the laughable Bob Semple tank can be considered a heavy tank at that rate!
  2. I literally did compare it to tanks within its period. Some were even from before its period (giving the P.26/40 an advantage).
  3. I compared the P.26/40 to perfectly normal, comparable, famous designs from the time period. All of my examples demonstrated that the P.26/40 fits much better into the medium tank category than the heavy tank category.

That is pretty much exactly what my original post is saying. It is calling for some of the heavy tanks Hungary can get to help fill the heavy tank void in the Italian tech tree.

46

Heavy tanks depend on weight, armor, or gun and sometimes also speed. It also depends on the country that is classifying it. It isn’t merely just propaganda reasoning. There’s often more within the process especially if it’s the 1940’s.

Japan and Germany are both really good examples of how tanks were classified. Panther tanks despite being classed as Mediums had armor comparable to that of a Heavy. Especially for 1943 standards. However because of the gun and speed was classed as a Medium.

For Japan, their Chi-Ri and Chi-To’s are relatively similar. Were classified as Mediums and Medium. Despite having the same gun, the weight made a difference as well as its Autoloader system, which the Ho-Ri would also have, though not in-game, yet is modeled.

However, when we captured the Chi-Ri was classed as heavy due to it being well heavy.
image
Hence this picture.

Conclusion: The P40 for its time had it been produced in 1940 would have performed fine, but the moment it hit late mid to late 1941, would become redundant. So I don’t disagree but you should consider this and treat it as such, and not frontally engage unless at a distance, or flanking. Since against lighter-gunned vehicles will perform fine, however, better guns will struggle if the distance isn’t closed.

1 Like
47

Erm… did you even read my original post? I literally said exactly what options there are.

I know, this is one option. But my original post suggests the addition of the Hungarian 44M Tas instead. This would be a completely original and probably better tank.

I disagree, but that’s not the point.

Hungary captured an IS-1? But anyway, a single captured enemy tank being a researchable heavy tank is not a good idea at all. I’m already against Finland having researchable captured enemy tanks in their subtree, but at least they captured more than 1 of those.

  1. Ok, but why on earth would they add a Romanian subtree to a tech tree that already has a more than capable Hungarian subtree???
  2. What? A single Romanian captured enemy IS-2 is simply an inferior addition to Hungarian-operated Soviet-supplied People’s Republic of Hungary IS-2s (which you previously criticised). The former is a single captured enemy tank (for a country that isn’t Italy’s subtree), the latter is a standard copy-paste tank actually operated by the country in numbers (for the country that is Italy’s subtree).
  3. Not sure if Romania did capture a Tiger I. But Hungary was actually supplied Tiger Is from Germany in small numbers and actually used them in combat, so the Hungarian Tiger I is the better addition. But as shown in the original post, Gaijin made this into a premium unfortunately.
  4. Again, why would you want A) a Romanian operated Panther medium tank B) that was given to them by the Soviets as a postwar trophy, paraded around, and then scrapped soon afterwards C) without seeing any combat, when instead you could have A) a Hungarian operated Panther medium tank B) that was given to them during the war by the Germans themselves C) in numbers D) that actually saw combat. Again, a Hungarian wartime Panther is simply a better addition in every way than a postwar Romanian parade-to-scrapyard Panther.

I literally explained why this is not a valid tank for addition to War Thunder in my original post. It is a 100% paper tank and a 0% complete prototype tank.

Again, if you are willing to justify less complete tanks, here are your options:

  1. Hungarian 44M Tas. Had almost completed prototypes upon being destroyed by heavy US bombing.
  2. Italian P.43. Paper tank. Didn’t even reach the prototype stage, didn’t even start building any prototype for it when Italy capitulated.

Clearly the much more complete 44M Tas is the better addition of these two.

48

Yeah. I’m just offering my opinion.

Sure, I’ve talked about the Tas before in previous threads, and you’ve talked about it in this one. I’m just looking at the other options, I don’t think it would necessarily hurt to have more than one heavy tank. Well, they technically would already with the Tigris, but you get the point.

The horses have already bolted from that stable, I feel. I’m not sold on the concept either but it’s not fair at this point to have them in one tree and only then put one’s foot down and say that nobody else is allowed it. But there are better options, I concede that.

Because Gaijin has said they add Axis minors to Italy. And where else would Romanian vehicles go? Not like Germany needs them. In any case, before anyone says anything about copy-paste, a Romanian subtree would definitely be more unique than the Hungarian one is.

Once again, I’m just listing all the options.

Yes, it looks sketchy to me, but see above. Sure, you could add a Hungarian Panther instead, I don’t really mind which, the difference seems in semantics.

And I also explained that there’s far more fictional tanks and planes which exist in game already. Let’s not pretend Gaijin’s rules on this are set in stone. If they decide in their infinite wisdom that Italy could do with it, then they will add it.

1 Like
49

I see, it just seemed like you hadn’t even read the post when you said “yes they should get a heavy tank, but the question is what?”

True, but I also don’t think using one mistake in the case of Finland should be used to justify more (even slightly worse) mistakes.

They said this long before they decided to add the Hungarian subtree. And when a country already has a subtree, it doesn’t need another one, nor does it have the space for another subtree. Also, Finnish vehicles got added to Sweden instead, Bulgarian vehicles aren’t in the game yet, and currently the only minor Axis vehicles in Italy are Hungarian and some Romanian premium ones. I don’t think Italy needs (or has the space) to be the dumping ground for every single minor Axis nation. Hungary is enough for Italy.

Of course, Germany doesn’t need subtrees. The unique Romanian vehicles can be added as premiums to either Italy or Germany, or they can be added as a subtree for France; after all Romania and France were close allies and shared politics, military technology, etc. Another option would be for them to be put into an alliance tech tree such as Czechoslovakia or Balkans or something. Better than shoehorning them into an already full and competent Italian tree.

I completely disagree with this though. Hungary offers more unique vehicles overall than Romania does, I mean no wonder Hungary was chosen as Italy’s subtree. The problem is, even though Hungary has loads of unique vehicles, Gaijin literally only chose to model maybe 10% of these, and replace the rest with unnecessary copy-pastes! What makes you think that if they add Romania they will model 100% of their unique vehicles? They would probably also only model 10% of theirs, resulting in less unique vehicles than Hungary, since Hungary had more unique vehicles that could be added than Romania. I find that a lot of people seem to think that whatever Hungarian vehicles Gaijin modelled is all that Hungary ever made and Gaijin left nothing out, when that couldn’t be further from the truth!

Here’s a summary of Hungarian vehicles they modelled and left out:

Spoiler

Gaijin modelled:

  • Csaba
  • Toldi IIA (hidden old battle pass tank)
  • Turan I
  • Turan II (hidden old battle pass tank)
  • Turan III
  • Zrinyi I (hidden old event reward)
  • Zrinyi II

Gaijin left out:

Better-known tanks:

  • Straussler V-4 (both 1936 and 1938 versions)
  • Toldi I
  • Toldi II
  • Toldi IIAK / Toldi III
  • Toldi Pancelvadasz (tank destroyer version)
  • 40M Nimrod
  • 44M Tas (both in the 75 mm gun and 80 mm gun forms)

Obscure less-well-known tanks:

  • 44M Buzoganyveto anti-tank rocket launcher armed Toldi II, Nimrod, Krupp Protze, etc.
  • D-944 PSZH (armed with Malyutka ATGMs)
  • CURRUS modified T-55A SZRP, T-72M and BMP-1 OWS 25
  • UNIMOG 435 (Mistral 3) (modern Hungarian SAM truck)
  • Opel Blitz Gebauer 1939.M
  • 2b9 AMB / 2b9 MT-LBu
  • Several other Hungarian/modified gun trucks, AA trucks and multiple rocket launcher vehicles

Better-known aircraft:

  • MAVAG Heja I
  • MAVAG Heja II (+Zuhanobombazo dive bomber variant)
  • WM-21 Solyom
  • WM-23 Ezust Nyil
  • RMI-8 X/V

Less-well-known aircraft:

  • WM-16B Budapest II
  • RMI-1 X/H (+DB 605 re-engined version)
  • AVIS III/IV (underpowered interwar biplane comparable to the He 51)
  • Me 210 Ca-1 (40 mm)
  • Hungarian modified and upgraded CR.32, CR.42, and Ju 86 K-2 (new guns, engines, etc.)

Ships (lol)

Bluewater:

  • SMS Szent István (dreadnought/battleship)
  • SMS Árpád (pre-dreadnought/battleship)
  • SMS Zrínyi/USS Zrínyi (semi-dreadnought/battleship)

Coastal:

  • PM1 class armoured river gunboats (1940) +PN11, PN21, PN22, PN31 and PN32 (related modernised versions)
  • Győr, Sopron, Szeged, Kecskemét and Debrecen armoured river gunboats (in their upgraded 1940-1944 forms)
  • PAM class minelayer boats
  • Maybe some other older boats like Huszar, Siofok, etc. (I don’t know much about naval, sorry)
3 Likes
50

The Tas was most certainly not fully built.

51

Most of the vehicles on this list are pointless.

Lets start with tanks.

The Toldi 1 and 2 are as good as identical, they can be killed by a handgun, and their guns make the French Reserves look capable.
The Pancelvadesz could not fire without breaking its own suspension, hence why it was never adopted.
The Tas was never completed. Period. Anything contrary to that is just as false as the Tas TD sketch.
The Buzoganyveto mount for a Nimrod chassis (technically a Lehel) was not built, only sketched.

And now planes.

Heja I is an Re.2000. Simple as that.

WM-16 and WM-21 are hardly faster than a Swordfish with less bombs.
CR-32 and 42 received new guns, sure, but that would be a better modification than new vehicle.

52

I never said it was. I stated that it was being built when it was destroyed by bombing. Considering WT allows the suggestion and addition of partially completed prototype vehicles such as the 44M Tas, I don’t see your problem with it.

53

Most vehicles that Gaijin adds are “pointless”. Do you think we need 22 T-34s? Do you think we need 35 Shermans? Of course not. They are there as options to play, to expand lineups, and expand WT’s collection of vehicles, most of them are not vital to the game.

They can be foldered. They can be premiums. We don’t need both anyway.

Not sure what kind of handguns you’re talking about… 5 mm of armour is enough to protect against handguns. If a tank’s armour can’t protect against a handgun, why would they give it any armour?

That’s if the French reserves had the mobility of the Toldis. Besides, they are better armed than the M2A2, rank I SPAAs, and on-par with the L3 and Csaba.

That’s not even true lol.

They didn’t adopt it because the suspension was overloaded and the vehicle had poor mobility (and protection) so it wasn’t any improvement over a regular anti-tank gun.

That doesn’t matter. Period.

Sketched as a recollection of someone working with it, so it may have been built with no pictures surviving. People thought the Turan III wasn’t completed until pictures of it were found many years later.

Then it’s clear that you don’t know anything about the Heja I.

If being nearly 50% faster (nearly 100 km/h faster) is barely faster to you, then you don’t know what you’re on about. Their performances are on-par with or better than other comparable biplane light bombers (Swordfish Mk I/Mk II, Hs 123 A-1, Po-2, Po-2M).

Giving an Italian research vehicle a modification of Hungarian machine guns that Italy never used is stupid.

4 Likes
54

Sweden is in the same place…

55

The fact that you have to reference meme vehicles as a justification for adding somethings really kinda says it all.

The L3 gun and Csaba gun are dogshit. End of story. The Toldi is vastly less maneuverable than a Csaba, with no more armor. The Csaba is over BRd at 1.3. Where is a Toldi 1 gonna go, .7?

The Pancelvadesz breaking its own suspension is absolutely true. Or are Denes Bernard and Csaba Brecse, the two most known Hungarian Military Historians, just full of shit? You say yourself that the suspension was overloaded to the point of killing mobility (true) so do you really believe firing something with such heavy recoil wouldn’t cause damage? Listen to yourself.

Saying a Heja is different than an Re.2000 is as good as fiction. “Oh but the engine is different!!!” No, it was just built by someone else. It received a small armor plate, an extra fuel tank, and a different cockpit layout. Some had different guns. Woopdee.

The Buzoganyveto sketch comes from the same guy as the Tas Rohamloveg sketch. The fictional Rohamloveg sketch.

The first WM-16 variant is quite literally slower than a Swordfish. Even the second variant is only 40-50 kmh faster. And again, far less bombs. The HS-123 is carrying twice the bombload at 30-40 kph more an hour. Thats a 1.3, so like the Toldi, where does the 16 go? .7? WM-21 works as a 1.0 and I would definitely like to see it.

56

I am confused…since when do such things matter for war thunder ? There are plenty of vehicles in game that would have even catastrophic failures IRL, thus not adopted.

1 Like
57

None are pointless as there is a Hungarian subtree that gives home to all Hungarian vehicles. Plenty of 'pointless" vehicles exist in game…i again fail to see the importance from game perspective

Same goes for the rest of the arguments.

Saying a Heja is different than an Re.2000 is as good as fiction. “Oh but the engine is different!!!” No, it was just built by someone else. It received a small armor plate, an extra fuel tank, and a different cockpit layout. Some had different guns. Woopdee.

“Good as fiction” Yet you go on to list factual differences that make it different. LMAO
Not to mention such differences as different gun, could mean a higher fire rate, depending on Gaijin.

3 Likes
58

As good as fiction because they do nothing to improve performance. Don’t think too hard, headaches are never fun. Further, not all Heja Is had the different guns, as I mentioned. The 8mm Gebauer that was considered for the Heja was not ultimately adopted and the 12.7mm Gebauer was effectively a Breda SAFAT that was engine driven instead of connected to an interrupter. Therefore it’s RoF is variable, and let’s not act like Gaijin would model that correctly, if at all.

The 8mm Gebauer that was used on a/c such as the WM-21 is effectively an MG-17 with 1/8 more RoF.

Then again, you’re looking at vehicles that couldn’t fight their way out of a damp paper bag and thinking they’re fit for the game, so the conversation is pointless.

59

If we went by ur thought process we could delete a good few vehicles per nation. And while I agree that the 20mm Solothurn armed vehicles are not fit for WT, thank God the game does not reflect your opinion. Just because you find something pointless or unappealing, someone else does not have to

3 Likes
60

I got no clue whatsoever about WW1/2 era tanks so i will not discuss whether the suggestions are “historically inaccurate” or ahistorical/useless since as you’ve said, some of these tanks are either pointless or never made it out of project papers…

With that said the convo still makes sense since every nation in game should be able to complete every daily and activity that the game offers you, making a heavy tank for Italy rather… needed?

I’ll also be honest, an Italy player could simply reroll the daily and the problem would be fixed but IMO thats a lame way of “fixing” an issue.

On a sidenote, i wanted to point out how Gaijin added the R2Y2 series to the JP Air tech tree. Once again i have no clue whether these made more sense or not …(from what i’ve heard these vehicles were just blueprints and they are supposed to be removed in the future)… they’re there to fix an issue that a tech tree has.

61

The R2Ys are largely fictional. They’ve also been there since launch / very near to it, and I never see them played in any case. Like you said they’re scheduled for removal, but they have been for a few years now too so who’s to say.

I do agree that Italy needs a heavy. The problem is that Gaijin messed up their only real chance to do so with the Tigris (a fictional name, notably). The other options would be a KV-1 ZiS-5 that Italy captured (but did not make use of), a Churchill IV that Germany captured from Russia and which a Hungarian tank unit used for target practice, and an IS-2 that (may or may not) have been captured in the Hungarian Revolution. Each of those options is a stretch at best. If Romania were to be a proper part of the tree there would be a better case for an IS-2 as one was used by a Romanian division just before they switched to the allies.

62

I totally agree. The Tigris was a massive mistake (premium).

1 Like