Artem has been selling missiles to the same export customers of Russia to Russias dismay, these export customers use Russian made radars. They share the seeker between UKR or RUS made missiles.
Since they are the exact same with the exception of the booster and the only change is the radar - they are compatible. Find me proof they aren’t or that the ER is changed in some way so as to preclude it’s use on the N019. You can’t.
As it turns out, having the necessary facilities and documents to produce the same product as a competitor means the product is cross compatible with the competitors weapons systems.
Oh, I really want to home in on this utter nonsense & undeniable proof that you are the type of user who make things up in all of your research & especially on the fly when you have no argument.
Ukraine has no right to sell what does not belong to them. It does not matter what ability of manufacturing was left after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. They do not have the expertise to develop in full the R-27 & R27ER to the Russian Federation standard & must utilize entirely different patents to sell ANY missile resembling the Vympel R-27 to any country on the planet.
Let’s pull up your own source once again to highlight your inability to be honest, shall we? The legally binding in patent that google also has record of & is also legally binding acknowledgment.
[RU2259536C1 - Aircraft guided missile - Google Patents]
Can you find me where on this patent list Ukraine as a legal owning entity? Where is Ukraine listed in any legally binding patent, documentation & literature that Vympel’s R-27 can be reproduced, manufactured & sold as Russian missiles?
You cannot & will not. Because Ukraine only made the R-27 cheaply under contract for Russian forces & Russian client & under the supervision of the Vympel & Russian MoD,
The Ukrainians never had the expertise for full scale production & once they were embargoed by the Russians long before the military operation begun has lost the ability to make Soviet & Russian Federation R-27s.
There are only two Ukrainian companies struggling to produce their own variants - Artem and Radionics
Both entered into cooperation on a program to create a new version of the R-27 Vympel air-to-air missile.
They make & produce their own variants. They are not using Russian R-27s against Russian forces lol. Neither have they sold a single Russian R-27s to any allied state of the Russian Federation nation for over 10 years. They are embargoed.
If would be absolutely idiotic to buy cheap R-27s made from a country that is embargoed by the Russian federation & lose all its aircraft & support. Do we need go over what is an arms embargo?
There is no dismay you are lying. Keeping the fighters & technical support of the Russian federation is far more important than ever buying cheaper made export variants of a missile from Ukraine.
Only you would make up something as nonsensical as that.
What good is a cheaply made & bought missile if your entire fleet of fighters is either repossessed or cannot get off the ground due to lack of parts and zero specialized manufacturer support?
They stopped producing and selling to Russian allies long before the major conflict started. They have no Vympel R-27s any longer. All they can do is use modified variants with their own seekers & that is why they do not even call it by the same variant.
You are just making things up as you go & you are the only one making this apparent. You are the one who keeps initiating arguments against realities & history you are not equip to challenge.
Again, all this is evident by the fact that you still cannot find a Ukrainian Mig29 with an unmodified N019 Rubin radar retrofitted with the R-27ER.
You cannot & will not find any Mig29 in the entire world if you cannot find one in Ukraine. You cannot find one even in Russia. You will surely never find one in the rest of the world.
Ukraine was only allowed to produce R-27Rs at the supervision of the Russian federation as well as major cut & tax taken by the Russian MoD. They own the technology. Vietnam is their actual strategic ally who is reliant on Russia, the only country to produce the Su27 & Su-30 Flanker with the expertise to supply correct maintenance parts & updates of the technology.
They were embargoed & were cut off from Russians expertise & Vympel. It was not because the Artem factory was destroyed recently, they were embargoed long before that & lost critical support.
Ukraine only had the manufacturing capability of the R-27. They did not have full scale production. They do not have the expertise to maintain & supply the many unique engineering machines & specific techniques that go into that one radar guided weapon systems the R-27. Only Moscow does. Only engineers from Moscow oversaw & provided critical technical support at these factories.
The only reason Ukraine had the ability at one time was to help out an old Soviet state out with a deal to put cash in their pockets as well as a stable job sector for Ukrainian civilians to produce R-27s at a fraction of the cost for use by both the Russian Air Forces & allies of the Federation.
Ukrainians did not have the ability to wake up one day & decide they wanted all the revenue for themselves & at the same time was able to convince Russian allies who depend much more on Russia than fighters that they too should go yolo & buy even cheaper R-27s.
This does not happen, neither is the Russian Federation as simple minded, not able to see two steps in front of them like some here do actually believe.
In fact, China produces the R-27 domestically with a license purchased from UKRAINE. Not Russia.
Chinas R-27s are in use on their older Soviet jets with Soviet radars. They all use the same seeker.
You continue to post more and more nonsense as though it will drown out the fact that you’ve ignored my question each and every time. What changed on the physical missile from R-27R to R-27ER that somehow precludes the ER’s use on the N019 radar? You’ve made the claim that the ER requires different frequency bands but you did not back this up with any source or explain why that would be the case when we know the two missiles are identical besides the motor section.
And of course, Ukraine used to produce the same exact missile under license until around 2012 so they have the exact same product being sold to American allies…
Because its their own version of the R-27ER! lmfao!
You cannot make up this uneducated logic I sear to god, bravo good sir!
You literally defeated your own argument.
Ukraine grants license because its their own version of the missile!! You spent an hour & a half desperately looking on the internet to prove yourself incompetent.
Ukraine uses modified N019 radars & that is why you can only find them on on upgraded N019 Radars** They also state IMPROVED Ukrainian built R-27ER & ET thanks to the Luch State Design Bureau and the Artem State Joint-Stock Company)
Get wrecked.
On February 28, 2007, the Minister of Defense of Ukraine A.S. Gritsenko announced the allocation of 7.7 million hryvnias from special funds of the Ministry and the state budget of Ukraine to complete the development of the modernized version of the MiG-29. As the commander of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Anatoly Toropchin said in an interview, the modernization of the MiG-29 aircraft should extend their service life to 35-40 years from the date of production, and the engines - up to 20 years, which should have made it possible to operate the modernized aircraft for another 15-16 years.
Since at that time the military-political leadership of Ukraine had not yet decided on the content of the military doctrine and the country retained a “non-aligned” status, and the financing of the armed forces was limited, it was decided on a “small program of modernization” of the MiG-29 to the level of the MiG-29MU1 (which was supposed to be an intermediate stage to a promising modernized version of the MiG-29MU2). The modernization of the MiG-29 to the level of the MiG-29MU1 is aimed at increasing the detection range of air targets, improving the accuracy of injecting the aircraft to a given point and expanding the capabilities for monitoring and recording the functional parameters of the technical condition of the aircraft, engine and a number of onboard systems. In the course of modernization, the fighter undergoes a major overhaul with an extension of its service life at the Lviv Aircraft Repair Plant, is painted in “pixel” camouflage, the aircraft is equipped with a receiver of the SN-3307 satellite navigation system manufactured by Orizon-Navigation integrated into the avionics (due to which the accuracy of navigation and the range of use of automated instrumental landing equipment are increased), the Phazotron-Ukraine specialists are replacing the N019-09 receiver unit with the onboard N019 radar (which made it possible to increase its reliability due to the use of a new, more modern element base up to 10-20 thousand hours). In addition, it is reported about the expansion of the radio station’s frequency spectrum to meet the requirements of ICAO.
The use of improved Ukrainian-made missile weapons (230-mm medium-range air-to-air missiles R-27ER1 and R-27ET1 manufactured by the state-owned company Artem with a launch range of up to 95 km and promising 170-mm Gran short-range air combat missiles with a thermal homing head, the development of which was entrusted to the Luch State Design Bureau and the Artem State Joint-Stock Company) should also contribute to improving the combat effectiveness of the aircraft.
As of the beginning of October 2012, the cost of the program for the modernization of one MiG-29 to the level of the MiG-29MU1 (excluding overhaul costs) was 2 million US dollars. In November 2014, the cost of modernizing one MiG-29 for the armed forces of Ukraine was estimated at 29.166 - 29.167 million hryvnias (about 1 million US dollars). Full modernization only applies to single-seat fighters, since two-seat fighters do not have radar.
This all was written before 2014 where all Ukrainian support was pulled & they were embargoed. They do not sell Russian R-27s. They sell Ukrainianmodified & domestically built versions of the R-27s.
Ukraine uses modified R-27ERs on their modified Mig-29s that use modified with N019 radars.
Because you cannot slap on the R-27ER to any unmodified N019 Rubin radar & guide them. It is not technically possible.
The R-27ER will not recognize or cooperate with an outdated radar that everyone & NATO owns, even private American Billionaires.
lol because it’s theirversion of the Missile! lmfao. It’s not a legitimate R-27ER down to the patents like the Russians.
LMFAO he does not know what a license agreement is too. Dude just slapped himself with his own source.
By the way, your exact same Ukrainian source says the R-27ER is a crap missile & many times complained as well as the Ukrainian Airforce that the ER is crap, the R-27R is crap & SARH technology is obsolete (it literally is) & why they need the F-16 & the Aim-120. They decided on the F-16 & to forever leave their reliance on obsolete aircraft & missiles behind.
Get wrecked with your open source that often says the R27ER *is crap & right there in black & white the ER is only slightly better in a head on barely any better than the R-27R in a head on launched from an Su27SK against a non upgraded export N019 Rubin.
Nothing is ever said about its magical ability to exceed Mach 3.1 immediate acceleration even faster than the R-27ET at low altitude in War Thunder.
Spend another hour and a half to desperately looking more evidence that actually proves my points & I already read.
I don’t know how else to tell you, but your entire argument is nonsense. You can’t stop repeating yourself. A radar upgrade somehow precludes the use of the same missile on the earlier radar? Literal nonsense.
Ukraine’s R-27’s are Russian R-27s because they both produced the same missile the same exact way. Ukraine initially under license. They did not modify it for use on their own equipment. They exported it to countries that have modernized Russian radars long after they lost the license. They couldn’t have possibly done this if for some reason the upgraded radars required some Russian only modification to the ER.
Instead, these fire control systems simply tell the missile which bands and frequencies to listen for and they guide on those ranges and with that encoding. It’s all about the fire control system… NOT the radar.
Your logic is boiled down to a component requiring an upgrade (the radar) to guide the exact same missile that was guided previously (with different booster)… It’s total nonsense and you’re trying to steer away from the fact that you can’t answer my question.
Since the two missiles are identical besides the booster… What precludes the use of the one with the larger booster on earlier fighters with the N019 radar?
Right… I’ll spend another hour and a half looking for more points?.. You mean restating the obvious for days on end?
Nope, they bought the whole line from Ukraine, they don’t care if it’s from Russia or not, better After-sales Service is what they mainly focus and the agreement is from both sides, not even Russia con involve, Ukraine in the other hand, they got nothing to loose, they need money so they offer better options for them.
Yes both of them is strategic ally but they don’t ask Russia to upgrade S-125, they don’t ask to overhaul the Su series and they not even purchased AK-103 or asked for T-54 upgraded options.
Just stop talking. You do not know how to read, only know how to talk.
I already proven without a shadow of doubt that R-27 ER in Ukraine is no longer made to the same Russian specs & patents. They were embargoed over a decade ago & why they can only offer their version of the missile for sale which you just proven yourself!!
They only use domestically produced versions right now in 2024 that were designed & developed by The Luch State Design Bureau and the Artem State Joint-Stock Company)
They are only manufactured by the state-owned company Artem State Joint-Stock Company
Ukraine only uses their own modified R-27ERs on their modified Mig-29s that use modified with N019 radars. This is also proven in the MiG-29MU1 upgrades & their N019 Rubin UPGRADES.
You accidentally proven all my points that with your incompetence to understand what a patent is & what a licensed agreement is even though we sign to everyday.
The Ukrainians can only sell their own intellectual properties & enter in licensed agreements with others to build them. They cannot sell their version of the ER & still have the same elements of the R-27ER per patent.
Just say you are uneducated & have no idea why you are talking about & stop speaking about things you clearly no thing about. That will suffice.
Additonally, you actually believe in the wildest conspiracy theories I have ever seen on WT. This is levels of 2pac is alive the illuminati levels of wild…
To accuse Ukraine is violating Global IPO laws is one thing.
But to claim China is too?!! That China is also knowingly entering into illegal license agreements to stab the Russians in the back over what exactly???
An ability to produce an obsolete missile guided by an entirely obsolete technology that has no chance in a modern battlefield?
The neither the RuF & CCP actually use on any single oneof their own modern fighters?? China has plenty of modern fighters & many older ones that are far beyond the capability of some SARH that has a worst record than the Vietnam Aim4 falcon??
Just because China bought the license agreement does not mean they are using it. Neither does it mean they have any intention of producing the missile.
The Chinese buy license agreements all the time simply for research without any intention of using it. The Russians are their allies not Ukraine. They are donating cash & military vehicles to Russia, not Ukraine.
They rely on Russia in deals in energy & militarily support that cost more money than any that failure of a missile such as the R27.
You have no idea how terrible your ability to understand & properly interpret data found in open source is.It’s actually is scary…
Your own Ukrainian source that you literally just tried to peddle wild conspiracy theories & misinformation from a source that later comes out with a new article (actually several) 2 years later that mentions the R-27ER by name, that it is a trash missile that is slightly better than the R-27R & is too also trash.
They even go further to imply that Vympel the manufacturer is a liar as well as the Russian federation who sold the Su-27…
The EXACT same Ukrainian website said all these beautiful, romantic words about their version & how everyone is lining up to buy Artem’s R-27ER July 21, 2021…
Then April 25, 2023… the EXACT same Ukrainian website ran an article reporting a very different thought about the R-27 & the ER… Claiming the R-27ER is trash, its history is a failure & combat records is a failure & titles their article quote:
They REFUSE to acknowledge & accept Ukraine’s own tactical failure of their own domestically produced, modified version of R-27 that was directly designed & developed by Luch State Design Bureau & the Artem State Joint-Stock Company. They claimed was better!!!
So, instead all they can do is refer to the Ethiopean Eritrean war 1998 to indirectly point the finger at the Russian Federation, hide their own failed efforts to modernize their entire fleet of fighters as they demand the world provide them the F-16 & aim-120.
Why would a Ukrainian source ever feel the need to refer to an Ethiopian War back in 1998 to highlight why the ER is bad as a reason why they need the F-16 & Aim-120??? They can simply point at their own Airforce’s failed attempt to modernize their Mig-29s & the domestically developed, produced & exported Artem’s R-27ER…
You sir also have been proven to believe in propaganda! GET WRECKED!
I taught you what the radars are called & why they are different, nice try.
But this is even more perfect thanks! Because since Ukraine already had the Mig-29s to use ER & R-77 the whole time & only changed the radar receiver in the MU1 to be able to guide their own domestic versions of the R-27ER that was developed & produced by Artem after they were embargoed by the Russian Federation from receiving Russian technology & support.
They also specifically sell their version of the ER by Artem, not the Vympel R-27ER. Ukraine does not have any Russian spec R-27s.
So why were you ever arguing the N019 Rubin can guide ER? & bringing Ukraine up as an example? Only further establishing the point I made all along that only Topaz & greater are proven to use & guide the R-27ER & R-77 in the Mig29s.
In which you still cannot provide a single example of the N019 Rubin guiding the ER. But keep sending me pictures of 9-13S… Thanks for the support, though.
You are completely incompetent in determining what radars do what. Neither can you determine what was the first Mig-29 radar to use the R-77 & R-27A.
The Topaz is a N019M.
What are the other N019M radars called then?
You are making up random variants to hide a wounded pride. But let off bro.
Here educate yourself, there is two links right I have much more too.
You made the claim the Mig29MU1 is a N019M Topaz. Specifically, N019ME export version that is cut down. Prove exactly which variant these random 3 you made up that Ukraine has.
Ahhaaah N-019M-Topaz M
I have more competence with regard to aviation in the USSR and Russia than all the people at the forum combined.
It was simply designated N019 as part of the RLPK-29.How did you come up with the name Rubin is not clear at all
**Thank you so much for proving you have zero education or appreciation of Soviet Aviation History. ** But only get on here to live action role play as Soviet Specialist who does not even have access to play any of these aircraft in game which are oddly modelled horribly by developers as you constantly complain.
Please allow me to educate you once again to school you on Soviet Aviation history & show you why the original N019 that was developed using the inverse cassegrain antenna that is based on the MiG-23ML’s Sapfir-23ML radar is called the N019 Rubin.
JSC Phazotron-NIIR; Formerly: OKB-339 will name the radars after the development team who produces it. You have the Topaz & Zhuk etc.
The first unmodified radar of the Mig-29 was developed by team Rubin at OKB-339.
That is why it is called the N019 Rubin in the actual Soviet Airforce & is referred to by actual inner circles of real enthusiast who do study Soviet design philosophy. Not pretend on a video game forum like you.
The N019 Rubin is the formal name for the radar.
The N019 radar in all Mig29 in the entire game besides the SMT are N019 Rubin radars.
