i’m not even going to attempt to go in the lift debate, but on that one i have to disagree. Being forced in the multipath layer is already being at a disadvantage. Having altitude gives angles, and angles give an element of surprise. 5000m is a really sweet spot to get easy kills on people beneath you.
Now regarding the matter at hand, that entire thread is about to become obsolete anyway, fox 3s are coming
We will have to agree to disagree. I don’t think skimming puts you at any kind of significant disadvantage in air RB due to the incredible situational awareness you’ll have.
Of course it varies per aircraft, but most top tiers with TWS are able to observe all aircraft in front of them up to 5km alt without issues and above that are the funny chem trails.
The R-27R/ER isn’t impossible to avoid either. It isn’t a guaranteed kill.
long range i agree
but in the mid game fox 2 cluster **** (please excuse the language), i’d say it matters quite a bit
R27R would have been fine against 7Fs and 530Ds i’d say. Time frame would also correspond (IRL)
If the AIM-7F/M overperformance is corrected the R-27R would perform fine against it at long range and only really be beat in nonsensical conditions such as head-on joust from close range.
The Super 530D is likely underperforming but I haven’t seen much documentation on that as I have stuff like magic 2.
In regards to the fox-2 cluster as you put it - the R-27T/ET is quite nice for picking targets off at range silently. The R-27ER should be mostly expended by that time.
Being at altitude puts you at a disadvantage to the people in the multi path layer… Because they can fire the longer range Fox 1’s at you, and you can’t fire anything back, despite holding the energy/altitude advantage.
Sure being forced to fly below 100 meters might be a disadvantage in some regards, but not against people flying high, those flying high are the ones at risk
being down low means you need to concentrate more on how you fly and on the enemies flying low against you. In such context, losing track of a target orbiting away 5 clicks high and 20 clicks away will happen more often than not. As for the awarness, once the target is at a certain angle on top of you, even the best radar won’t help you.
once those forced to the multipath layers are occupied with the enemies flying low, the few who can fly high can just dive down on them throwing fox2s. Doing it with an aircraft which has meh fox1 is still feasible, but much more dangerous. ERs help quite a lot in that regard.
Multipath is also not always reliable. Ground can be quite irregular at times, and the effect is also weaker when the missile comes top down, which can lead to a hit or critical hit.
Now, even assuming everything i said above was pure crap and @MiG_23M would be right, your logic would still seem weird to me. If any fox 1s can be avoided because of the magic multipath, i don’t see why R27ERs was needed over R27R anyway, and i can’t possibly understand why Gaijin would bother with fox3s as well.
Or to put it shortly, if it’s of no importance to you, i fail to understand why you are defending its early introduction in game
I would assume this “context” you’re talking about is the AIR RB 16v16 fur ball gameplay, where everyone gets sent off at the same time against each other? This context/situation you’re talking about is so absurd and isn’t rooted in reality whatsoever, it’s extremely arcady gameplay (that RB players don’t even seem to enjoy in the first place?) with people diving down on unsuspecting targets in fur balls with Fox 2’s…
I only play sim, so my experience is very different to that… Regardless I don’t think you should balance things to accommodate the 16v16 fur ball, it’s gameplay that no-one even likes in the first-place. People adapting to no multi-path would probably even do some good getting rid of the missile slinging fur-ball altogether.
It’s reliable if you can get within 100 meters of the ground (AGL). It’s reliable enough to where in 99% of situations, if a Gripen decides it wants to kill you, It can with minimal effort literally straight-line it to you at mach 1.2 on the deck and there isn’t a damn thing you can do about it with your speed, altitude and superior missiles. You certainly can’t dogfight it after the merge either?
Multipath puts the amazing energy/BVR fighters at a massive disadvantage and it’s just bad gameplay.
I have not read your whole conversation, I’m only discussing multi path here, but about this point:
I don’t see the huge issue with certain nations having advantages over others in some regards, it’s what makes the nations exciting and unique to one another, you could say the same thing about western/blue team flight models absolutely curb-stomping red team/russian ones since the kings of battle update. I think the game would be incredibly boring if everything was equal, we’d essentially just be flying around “skins” of our favourite jets without their unique advantages. Now I’m not completely defending the early R27ER introduction, matter of fact I wasn’t even playing the game when it was introduced but I currently don’t see a big issue with it in the game ESPECIALLY with current multi-path, in terms of very long range shots it’s not that far off the AIM7M, and without multipath I think we’d see more gameplay at those ranges, where the F16 and F15’s also have the energy advantages
i would have much rather prefered a multipath deletion and somewhat balanced fox1s (no R27ER that is). As for the flight models, i seem to understand that a few bug reports are opened regarding Migs and Sus ? Not to mention, the only 2 being really problematic imo are gripens and f-16As. The rest is somewhat on par i’d say.
Having a missile such as R27ER means that half the planes at top tier basically can’t play long range BVR, because there is no point.
At the end of the day it all comes down to the fact that i can’t really agree with this statement.
Of course having differences is good, but not by that much.
For instance, a 530D is faster than a 7F, but also shorter range, which makes for an interesting dynamic in a joust.
I mean sure, but this is how it is. “R27ER could have been balanced if” is nice and all, except there is no “if”, there’s just what we have…
That one is a whole different can of worms.
Except for that to work, you’d need everyone to have decent BVR. Having to grind an entire tree when it could be done with smart balance between nations, meh no thanks…
All of your positions presuppose mid game positioning is an impossible task
People are trying to fix the Su27, but it’s no guarantee from what I understand, the 29 is done for from my understanding.
F16C too, I’d also say F15 but I’m honestly not sure how it stacks up in a dogfight, I’ve heard some people say it’s incredible, some say it’s the opposite.
Well currently, the VASTLY superior high altitude performance of the F15 together with AIM7M is not far from the 27ER at long range engagements. I’ve done plenty of BVR duels with a friend and the F15’s ability to hold incredible speeds and effectively crank, together with the 7M’s pretty all right long range performance compared to the ER puts them very close in my experience. BVR duels can still work even if one of the planes has an inferior missile, going cold and notching are common tactics that people can adapt to. However for good gameplay I do believe Fox 3’s are very important to good BVR duels, and we’ll have them in a month. I’ll take AMRAAMS over 27ER’s any day if there’s no or minimal multi-path.
For BVR, aside from the ER, nothing is really comparable to the 7M currently, the 7M completely wipes the floor with 27R and 530D currently, more so than 27ER does with 7M from my experience of BVR duels.
Well, the same would go for any of the F16’s and likely the M2K-5F (assuming you’re talking about my point of bum-rushing someone on the deck)
You actually have a very good point here, a lot of nations are extremely lacking when it comes to BVR missiles, Sweden for example still stuck with Skyflashes…
I am very hopeful for Fox 3 implementation, and I hope that the devs waiting until all nations could get them is a sign of BVR going in the right direction, possibly with nerf/removal of multi-path.
I personnally play the M2K mainly, and i rarely go to the deck, at least early game. Problem is, i can’t really control how my team plays. Being high means you can be sneaky, but also means you need to be more careful. If a R27ER is fired at me, i go cold for a little while and recommit once interest in me is lost.
The problem is : it takes time, and if good chunk of the team is already dead by that point, there’s nothing i can do, which tends to be annoying.
7M is manageable with 530D. If the 7M is fired far, it needs to be defended, sure. However, if i can get close (<15km, more or less) 530D’s raw acceleration means i will likely get the kill before my opponent does. Note that the 15km range given as an example varies depending on altitude.
With R27ER, there is a huge gap in range, but also a speed gap. So basically, no disadvantage against enemy missiles.
My personnal interpretation of FM performances in game goes a bit like this currently :
Gripen > F16A > F15 > F16C > M2K > Mig29 > Su27 > Mig29 SMT. But i’m far from having played all of those aircrafts. Also this “ranking” applies mainly to air RB context. I know the FM can vary quite a lot when the instructor is not applied
Agreed
You don’t play air RB and almost every aircraft you touch has a horrid KDs & win rate even when played a short number of games. You have no business talking about how to play air RB.
You are better off pretending to know about Naval EC or Ground Arcade.
You learned how to play the game from me, while in my squadron. Quit the petty beef. You should recall all your absurd statements about the Kfir and when I invited you to try them out only for me to shut you down. Back then you could take the L and move on, even joined my squadron. Now you’ve just grown resentful and buried yourself in delusion.
Beef??? The Kfir??? Squadron???
How is this relevant in the slightest? I am merely pointing out an undeniable recorded fact.
Additionally, you have not played top tier in any new aircraft to come to War Thunder the last 4 updates outside of 10 games or so at their release in any game mode.
You offer no real value on how to play Air Rb based on your game experience past & present. But is just talking. Thats why it’s hard for people who actually play the game in its current state to find what you say logical.
You simply have not played Air RB or any of the entire game much since the first Mig29 way back.
The game & top tier is much different and rapidly changing in ways not understood unless actually playing.
Thats why you had no idea how fast the R27ER flies at high altitude. You actually thought it flies only Mach 3.14…
Thats why you also declared it an impossibility, that the R27ER cannot exceed 1,000 meters a second (Mach 3.1) at low altitude (3,200 feet) just on drag alone…
Which is immediately proven wrong in basic gameplay the first time and can reach speeds up to Mach 3.4 in under 7 seconds while maneuvering.
All you have done is continue to prove that you actually do not have any idea how the game is played let alone how any of its weapon systems actually perform. But are here only to live & reside on the forum.
We actually play the game & have no reason to make up performances like you.
In case there is any more request on the skin, it’s the Su37 Terminator skin from the Farnborough Airshow 1996 and amazingly done down to each decal & OKB badge.
BTW a note, that quick 8 kill game (actually under 1 min 20 secs) was already after they just fixed 2 radar exploits that gave the ER unprecedented accuracy in certain scenarios.
I have nearly 16,000 recorded hours in this game on steam alone and the game modes are not complex. The opinions and experience I have to offer are valid. If they weren’t you wouldn’t be attacking my character.
Even others were able to understand the arguments being made (which you are once again cherry picking statements… Odd). You want to claim it was hypersonic at low altitudes. No amount of experience is going to tell you if the missile is performing accurately or not if you’ve never even read into the source materials to verify much less since you didn’t even know it is actually underperforming in top speed in game.
The F-15A is currently the best min fuel 1v1 dogfighter and can even defeat the Gripen flown by competent players. Its highest thrust to weight & massive lift in a pitch can keep it suspended in the air while flat spinning vertical and slotting behind opponents as shown here.
Being the best gunfighter does not win air RB matches. The F-15 is held back by an intentionally unmodelled Aim-7M. The Aim-9M has also been reduced in range to the R73.
The Aim-7 is currently modelled that its control fins auto reset to neutral the moment a track is dropped further killing opportunity for the missile to maintain optimal trajectory even if track is reinitiated. Additionally, there is auto self-destruct modelled so if left without a track too long it completely neutralizes it.
In real life the Aim7M are equipped with autopilot computers that enable the missile to fly toward last known track. All the Aim7M needs is a track to launch, a midcourse update at longer ranges & a final track for terminal guidance. Really no different from the current R-27ER.
The current Aim7M does not have any ability. The Aim7M should also be far more accurate as it’s no longer being guided by continuous wave signals when equipped by the F-15 & F-16C. Their radars can determine range and velocity at the same time the missile is in the air for more precision whereas CW cannot because there is no breaks in the signal. Its a continuous wave.
I guess you prove that it does not matter how many hours you play the game. You still cannot generate any recorded skill in any game battles huh.
But you are a custom game specialist, no? Min fuel and infinite ammo? Gotcha.
Duel @FeetPics Gripen. Feel free to DM him I’m sure the fight won’t go how you claim.
The AIM-7F/M is overperforming kinematically.
You’re very well aware that I can dust you in aspects of the game that invoke skill. This is why you were never part of the squadron vs squadron air team. You couldn’t keep up. When it comes to dusting 8x new / premium players in air RB you are quick to brag. This isn’t a competition though, you can feel free to admit the R-27ER is underperforming.
