If you are so sure that the m51 is op then I advise you try it for yourself since it seems like you have never really played Israel.
And how does that matter
Just because my k/d is 0.5 doesn’t say anything about the points I make or anything else in the forums it just means I’m not a world champion in war thunder
That’s true, but mister @ULQ_LOVER thinks otherwise, he thinks your arguments are only worth as much as your stats. I guess as long as you’re on his side he doesn’t mind.
It’s insulting that I’m taking shit for my stats, while no one minds your stats.
I’m willing to talk with anyone, if he/she presents logical arguments.
Is the argument that the m51 is a Sherman not enough for you
Sometimes people don’t notice certain things and now that you mention it I completely disagree with him
This game is not and has never been historically accurate.
Do you even read. I very clearly stated “shares the most with Conventional Tank Destroyers”. The right lane are still tank destroyers, but as I also stated, many of them do not share commonality with typical Tank Destroyers BECAUSE Germany was inconsistent and strange with tank designs and classifications.
And no, the SU-152 and ISU-152 are not tank destroyers, they are Self Propelled Guns. WarThunder is not a source for facts.
No, it’s not. I’ve dropped several nukes using that gun at even 6.3. You cannot take your miserable experience and apply it to everyone else. Some of us actually can aim and use shell types properly.
You brought it up.
It’s not “Terrible”, it just does other aspects better. Once again, I will rephrase. Your Experience with the Gun does not dictate fact and reality. Get your heads out of the clouds. You can still easily kill all of your opponents easily when positioning and using the gun right.
The M-51 is one of my best tanks. I have hundreds of games both using it and fighting it. It’s not exceptional. Even if you know which side the gunner is on, that doesn’t matter. You have not played the 105mm HEAT gun it has. It’s a tiny needle of damage compared to the Tiger 2P you play the most. Unlike your German gun, you have to be surgical with the M-51. There can be NO trees, bushes, fences, or any soft cover between you and your target. The Gun is Low Velocity and has low post penetration damage.
Your Tiger has better firepower at the BR. The only thing the M-51 excels at is its ability to ignore uptiers. It will play equally the same at 6.0 and even 7.0. The Sturer Emil shares this exact same ability, yet you’re not yapping about it because it’s GERMAN. You’ll almost never even SEE an M-51.
Yes, you did.
You straight up called it a bad platform. It’s not. You can’t even read your own statements.
Because it’s a Cast Hull Sherman and vulnerable to autocannons frontally…
THEN WHY BRING IT UP?
…then why do you think it’s OP if it’s a platform downgrade???
You do not comprehend balance. The M-51 struggles even at 6.0. It’s not even alone in having HEAT at that BR. There are plenty of vehicles like the ASU-85, M36B2, M56, M50, M41, ELC BIS, and many more have HEAT-FS. The M-51 only gets standard HEAT, which is low velocity and harder to aim.
The M-51 should NEVER be higher in BR than a King Tiger. That’s absurd. The King Tiger is WAY better. I cannot believe you think a vehicle is better just because it has a higher penetration stat.
What…? How is saying the 88mm is the better gun at 6.0 remotely connected to the L/55…?
I have played hundreds of games in both, and the Tiger 2 accelerates faster and maintains a higher speed more often. Just because you’ve played a tiny bit of the Tiger 2, doesn’t make you an expert. The Tiger 2 is objectively one of the best tanks in the game BR for BR. The only heavy tank that beats it at 6.7 is the T26E5.
For one, the M-51 is very rare to run into. You’ll barely see 1 of them in 10 games. Secondly, the T95 suffers from much more than just the M-51. Even before Israel was even added, the T95 was still unusable. Any tank from 5.0 and above can just kill it with the Cupola.
Also, once again, the M-51 is a Tank Destroyer in play style. It should be more capable of penetrating tanks when it trades everything for that gun.
On top of that, I’ve never died to an M-51 in a T95. Ever.
It’s sooooo sad that your Super Ultra Deluxe Tiger isn’t immortal and can actually be killed reliably by something at its BR. Your Tiger is already one of the best tanks in the game, why the hell are you arguing for a mediocre tank to be nerfed just because you hate dying at all in your games?
The M-51 is not remotely capable of fighting on a fair level with any of the 8.0 tanks in this game. You don’t understand just how bad your understanding of what’s fair is. If you balanced the game, it would die in a week.
Germany shouldn’t be immortal at its BR and you’re only reinforcing the “Germany Suffers” Stereotype.
How about you learn to actually improve at the game rather than whining about a mediocre medium tank that’s barely got anyone playing it?
I’m tired of this stupid argument. All your entire point is based on is “I feel I should be unkillable in my TIGER!!!1!”.
Get over it and actually play the damn thing you think is overpowered before screaming nonsense. You don’t know what you’re talking about. You’ve only played 27 matches in the M-51.
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I’ve had it stop the Tiger 2 10.5cm a few times. Mostly just volumetric stupidity though.
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Just wait until he uses the “you can’t read” argument again…
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Like, I get it OP - sometimes I just sit there in my Tiger II and get front penned by it because I didn’t pay attention, its annoying.
But the other 9/10 times I just utterly demolish its face. You should do so too.
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If M51 was in German Tree it would have been removed yesterday with message " for balance"
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Is it really the hill you want to die on? How is 75mm M3 not bad, when compared to 76mm M1, not even talking about Tiger’s, Panther’s or IS-2’s gun. You’ve dropped nukes at 6.3 using that gun not because it’s a good gun, but because EBR as a whole is a good tank. For a scout tank 75mm M3 is enough, but there’s a reason M4A2 with 75mm M3 is 4.0 and M4A2 with 76mm M1 is at 5.3.
I did and you’re exaggerating. You don’t have to be surgical, it’s a 105mm HEAT, not 76mm APCR. If you really want to one shot the enemy without an ammorack then sometimes you have to be surgical, but it’s better to cripple the enemy instead and be patient. All you need is a hulldown position and 400 meters or more between you and the enemy.
I’m not yapping about it not because it’s German, but because it’s historically accurate and not as jarring. Imo it should go up in BR to like 5.7 or 6.0 (and Nashorn too), but it’s not as urgent. It actually has bad mobility, unlike M-51. It has no turret. It also has 20 second reload and 15 shells. It’s an open top, you can overpressure it. But again, primarily it’s not as urgent, because it’s historically accurate.
V
? Because it’s the most basic Sherman and I’m referencing it to show what upgrades make it have a certain BR.
The platform downgrade is small and not in every aspect it’s a downgrade (turret) and the gun upgrade is massive.
All the tanks you listed also should move up to 7.7 or 8.0.
The M-51’s shell velocity is not low, it’s a standard for WW2 tanks. You’ve been spoiled by modern shell velocities.
Lmao.
Well L/55 also has stupidly high pen and also doesn’t have APHE. As you say “pen isn’t everything”, so at 6.7 long 88 is better than L/55, since it one shots opponents easier. It has better reload, but I’m sure if it was mounted on a worse platform it would have around the same reload as long 88 or longer. Long 88 has worse shell velocity, but 1000m/s isn’t bad at all and I think you’ll agree that post-pen damage is more important.
I didn’t need hundreds of game to know you’re lying. M-51 has simply better power to weight ratio. Tiger 2 has higher top speed, but rarely ever reaches it, unlike M-51.
Tiger 2 also doesn’t maintain higher speed more often lmao. It’s a 70 ton tank. M-51 is significantly easier to throw around, simply because it’s a lighter tank. Panzer 4 H is much more mobile than M-51, even though it has 0.1 less hp/t, simply because it’s lighter and easier to stop and redirect speed. Panzer 4 H weighs 26 tons, while M-51 weighs 40 tons and the difference is massive. Now imagine the difference when Tiger 2 weighs 70 tons.
It’s a reserve tank, everyone grinding Israel has to play it and can spawn 3 times with it for free, while using only 1 crew slot.
It always suffered because 13 kph is extremely slow and made it purely a gimmick tank, but with tanks like M-51 it can’t even use it’s gimmick.
Sure.
I didn’t even take a 5.0 tank, but one of the best guns at 6.0 and the cupola was like a rainbow, all colors possible, green, yellow, red, gray. If you pen you will kill 1 crew member, maybe 2 and not damage anything else. There’s no way to kill the gunner with a cupola shot.
Like I said:
Also you saying Germany would be immortal if there were no HEAT spammers at 5.0-7.7 is hilarious.
Even if you don’t one shot you can easily cripple the enemy and kill him with the second shot. I didn’t aim for the ammo, even though I could.
It’s your 6th most played tank and the most played tank that sits at WW2 BRs. You either really like this tank irl and really want to make it work, or you like it in the game because it’s so good and can kill heavy tanks so easily.
It’s that 1/10 times he’s dying to it that has him raging.
It’s sad, very sad. It’s threads like these that remind me that there are times where the WerhaBoos have just as much capacity as the IvanBoos to cry oceans over the dumbest bull.
" iT nEeDs To Be 8.o CuZ iT nO fAiR fOr MuH tiGoOoOr "
The audacity.
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Who would have guessed that when opinion is the same as mine I consider it valid as my own experience backs it up.
It’s the most non ww2 tank that sits in that br only because it’s the first vehicle that you can get in the Israeli tt. Some player that gets to rank 4 in other nations that can unlock Israel might try the tank for a few games
7.7 lil extreme. 7.0 -7.3 sounds good, cuz a M51 can’t survive an upteir past 8.0/ 8.3
7.0 is also really high, I think it’s well balanced in 6.0 .
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The only one dying on a hill is you. Countless people who have more experience in this game are telling you how you are wrong and why you are wrong, and you don’t listen. I’m trying to be as nice as I can, but you’re being frustrating to explain things to.
The 75mm gun has a high fire rate and excellent selection of utility. The Jumbo can take the hits while dishing out well aimed return fire in any shell type. It doesn’t matter if you need smoke, HE, APHE, or even APCR for tougher opponents. It’s up for the challenge. Despite using the 75mm Gun, the 5.7 Jumbo is still a great tank. The same can be said for the early EBR. It’s exceptionally mobile with pretty solid survivability. The 75mm Fire rate allows extremely dangerous flanks with the shell types allowing you to engage every opponent you can run into reliably and quickly. The gun itself just takes some skill to use. You need to know where and how to aim. It’s that simple.
If it’s entirely a good tank, how does that prove your point? It can’t be an entirely good tank if it lacks critically in one area.
You just admitted the gun is viable when properly utilized. The argument is done. It’s good on heavies and lights for being reliable and full of utility. No one is denying that the 76mm has more raw damage than the 75mm, but it’s far less useful in many situations. The Fire rate advantage the 75mm gets is just insanely useful on many vehicles.
You do need to be surgical. HEAT damage is in a line. You’re disagreeing with how it’s programmed. It can deal some damage to things outside its line of damage, but it’s not consistent. The 88mm will almost always one shot an opponent when used by even unskilled players. It’s much more friendly. Sure, the M-51 can be excellent, as shown by Flak Dancer and my own experience, but it’s WAY more to do with skill than the vehicle itself. Some tanks require player ability to show their worth.
The time to kill between the M-51 and Tiger is important. Although you’re comparing apples to oranges here, since they do vastly different things better, the Tiger will kill an opponent and shift targets significantly faster than the M-51. For an M-51, it will usually take 2 to 3 hits to kill an opponent while a Tiger can do so in 1 hit. Not to mention the Tiger has better armor, mobility, handling, and top speed. The M-51 is a glass cannon. That’s it. You should stop looking at raw penetration to decide how good a vehicle is.
That’s a bad argument.
But they all kinda suck? Why should they be nerfed when they don’t perform well already?
Once again, the M-51 IS slower than a Tiger. How you feel doesn’t change the actual facts within the game. The Tiger has a higher Power to Weight Ratio and neutral steering. It gets around significantly faster. If you don’t believe that, the 6.0 Tiger E has a power to weight ratio of 12.2~ while the M-51 has a power to weight ratio of 11.5~.
It is objectively slower no matter how you feel. Stop talking about what you feel is true and go objectively.
And how many people do you run into that bring HE? I do, but I’ve rarely every been overpressured.
Historical Accuracy does not dictate fairness.
Do you seriously want your Panzer IV fighting a T32?
So, you admit to bringing it up. Why are you dragging this around in circles. You said the M4A1 is a bad platform. It’s not. It just isn’t useful at 6.0 because that’s obvious.
If you disable your stabilizer on an MBT, tell me how you perform against your opponents. I can guarantee you’ll struggle. The lack of a Stabilizer, Elevation Speed, and Handling makes the vehicle target enemies slowly on average, that’s not a small downgrade. You might not realize it with a low skilled crew, but when your vehicle is performing at its max, it’s a noticeable difference. The gun itself, while useful at cracking heavy tanks, isn’t all that impressive elsewhere. It’s slow to reload and get around. You’re basically a heavy tank that can’t even stop autocannons. You can’t even engage people past walls, bushes, and other obstacles.
No. You’ve already lost your credibility. There’s absolutely NO reason that an ASU-85, ELC BIS, M36B2, M56, M50, or M41 should EVER be the same BR as the Raketenautomat or DF105. You’ve actually gone mad to suggest that as “Balance”.
No, it’s not. Not for the BR. The M-51 regularly fights long 88, 128, 90, other large calibers. Those guns are extremely high velocity. You’re talking nonsense. I don’t even play top tier that much.
Credibility lost. German Main Copium. (This is straight up coming from another German Main).
Okay…? How is DM53 remotely relevant to Panzergranate APHE?
What are you even talking about… The French 105mm gun isn’t remotely comparable to the L/55…
I don’t even know how to address this. Comparing the Tiger 2 to a Leopard 2A7 is bat shit insane… Genuinely.
I already proved that incorrect.
The M-51 never hits the top speed in battle… no one would dare play it like that either…
Yes… it does… You can straight up do a side-by-side comparison.
Of course, it is… it has a better transmission and lower ground pressure…
Yeah…? What is your point…
The Tiger 2 and M-51 share a nearly identical power to weight, but the Tiger has a more reliable transmission, better reverse, better acceleration, better ground pressure, etc…
You can’t look at something from a stat card to determine this. It takes testing, which shows the Tiger is faster.
Once again though, why are you comparing a Tank Destroyer adjacent Medium Tank to one of the best Heavy Tanks in-game?
So what? It’s still one or two you’ll see at a time. It’s a cast hull Sherman that can’t fire first in most engagements. Why are you losing to it?
And I firmly believe the T95 should share the same BR has the Jagdtiger, but you’re not thinking of the T95 properly. Yes, it has a lot of armor, but it’s not immortal against everything. You’re almost unkillable to most targets you’ll fight when spawning it in down tiers, so why are you having an issue that a handful of Tank Destroyers have the potential to kill it?
Why did you fake the screenshot by purposefully not hitting the cupola at the right spot?
You’re not even hiding your desperation at this point man… It’s not cool to forge evidence for a faulty argument.
Because you lied… I used the same gun and a worse gun from 5.0. Both can take it. Even the 3.3 Panzer IV can do this…
Even the Panzer III can in some spots at 500 meters…
You’re just lying now…
Your entire argument is that you die to it and feel the gun is too good for the BR. That is exactly what you are doing.
And he’s got mountains of more armor, an overall better gun, AND more mobility. That T-54, which I’ve played extensively, will run circles around an M-51. It’s not a fair fight.
Being able to kill something does not mean that they’re balanced together. Should the Hellcat be 6.0 because everything at a low BR can kill it?
Because I’m a German/Israeli main. If you actually took all my 6.0 BR vehicles into account, you’d see I play a LOT of different tanks from almost every nation. I don’t just play one tank. The M-51 was the only tank I could play in Israel to start it, so yes, I do play it a lot compared to other 6.0. It was the only one I had because Gaijin is failing to properly nurture Minor Nations.
I do, I’m a tank fanatic. That’s why I play WarThunder and countless other tank games.
I can kill people easier in a Tiger 2 or Jagdtiger. They’re almost entirely immortal when used properly. Having something that can assist people against you in a down tier is NOT bad for balance.
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You yourself stated that a gun being able to penetrate something is enough for it to be at the BR of the thing it can penetrate.
So, which is it?
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They don’t even listen to other German Mains who tell them they’re wrong about stuff. It’s actually wild what Panter2005 has said
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Just because more people have a certain opinion doesn’t make them right. I listen to your arguments and don’t find them convincing, the same way you don’t find mine.
Dude, just stop. Utility =/= power. 50 cals have a lot of utility and it doesn’t suddenly make them better than your main gun.
What? Pretty much all tanks that aren’t mediums lack something in one area. Heavy tanks lack mobility, TDs lack either mobility or armor. Light tanks lack armor.
I never said it’s not viable, but it’s still a bad gun at 6.3 lmao.
No, most of the time you don’t. The damage is in a cone, always, with all HEAT. The 105mm HEAT has enough TNT equivalent to have a cone wide enough that you can shoot the Tiger 2 from the front in the center next to the driver and it will kill the driver and the 3 crew member in the turret. The same way 75mm guns have enough explosives in their APHE fillers to start reliably one shot tanks. The 50mm APHE is almost there the same way 90mm HEAT is.
Overall you spend significantly less times aiming, as your pen allows you to just point and click people. Occasionally you may want to aim a bit more when fighting some spacious opponents. If you know where the ammo is you can easily detonate it, because the armor and the angle doesn’t matter for you.
Penetration is one of the most important statistics for a tank. M-51 has insane penetration and sufficient post-pen damage, mobility and reload on top of that to make it too strong for 6.0.
No, you just don’t value historical accuracy in the slightest. A fundamental difference in our view on how this game should look like. I want balance and realism, you want only balance.
You were talking about Tiger 2 and now you brought up the Tiger 1.
You get killed by bombs and artillery from further away, planes can kill you with guns, rocket hits are more lethal. Overall you’re just more vulnerable, even to things that didn’t even directly hit you.
The kind of historical accuracy I want is T-34-85 and Tiger 1 fighting each other, without 400mm pen HEAT interrupting them. T-34-85 vs Tiger 1 is balanced and historically accurate, don’t you agree? That’s what I mean by balancing historical accuracy and game balance.
I never said that M4A1 is a bad platform at 3.3. You really just can’t read.
Leopard 1 doesn’t have a stabilizer and is doing very well, if Leopard 1 is doing very well, then M-51 will do fine. M-51 has more than enough gun elevation and turret rotation to snipe. The gun is wobbly, but stabilizer is useful mainly for brawling, which you shouldn’t do in the M-51.
It’s not slow to reload, it has the same reload as a Tiger. It’s slow for brawling when compared to something like M4A3E8, but it’s not a slow reload. Considering the 105mm caliber it’s a fast reload.
There is, the reason is HEAT or APDS/modern APCR (M332). For me you’ve lost credibility, if you think the only counter to heavy tanks like Tiger 2 is HEAT.
If M-51 has slow shell velocity, so does the Tiger 1, IS-2, T-34-85 and M4A3E8 to name a few.
For me comparing AMX-30’s gun to long 88 is bat shit insane in the same way.
Lies again.
Tiger 2 has 10 hp/t and M-51 has 11.5 hp/t. If that’s nearly identical, then 12.2 hp/t of the Tiger E is straight up the same.
I don’t know what kind of tests you took, but you should do one for drugs. Saying Tiger 2 is more mobile than M-51 is laughable.
You completely missed the point. New players play M-51, can die 3 times for free or 4 times using a backup and drag it’s stats down.
I didn’t fake it. Showing just the green area would be misleading, because if you actually aimed at the cupola with the cursor, it would flicker with all colors possible. T-95’s cupola has very trolly armor, the same way Tiger 1 has trolly gun mantlet.
I could say you’re forging the evidence, by choosing one of the pixels on the cupola that’s actually green.
Your entire argument is that M-51 is “just a Sherman”. If upgrades don’t matter, because all Shermans in the game are “just Shermans”, then why won’t all of them sit at 3.3.
M-51 has armament of early MBTs, it should fight T-55s on an uptier, Maus and IS-4 on a downtier, but not a goddamn Jumbo 76 or an IS-2 on an uptier.
“Almost entirely immortal when used correctly” sounds like outplaying the enemy. M18 is immortal, if you use it correctly. If you use M18 or M4A3E8 correctly, the enemy will be dead or disabled before he even fired a shot.
You act as if side armor or tracks simply doesn’t exist. If a heavy tank is using it’s vehicle correctly, it should be nearly immortal. If the heavy tank player doesn’t let you hit his gun, flank him or set up a crossfire, then he’s outplaying you. No matter what he can’t prevent you from tracking him though.
Normal TDs can pen the heaviest of the heavy tanks frontally, but they can’t just lolpen them like M-51 can.