Remove M51

[comeandseevx]

I got 10 kills in AB earlier with my 2S3M just to prove a point. I plastered multiple KTs, an IS-3, and a T26E5 by just shooting them on the turret face/roof. It’s an entirely point and click experience because you don’t have to worry about aiming for weak spots.

Trying to play 6.3-6.7 right now on AB is literally hell having to deal with constant M109s and M-51s around every corner. I try playing my Super Pershing and T26E5 and I can’t even peak any streets because I instantly get my gunner knocked out by an M-51 every single time.

It’s just not fun. In the lower BRs like 4.0 you don’t have to deal with any of this stuff because everyone’s on an equal playing field.

[Panter2005]

@markimash

If that is what you want, there are other games that do it pretty well.

Ah yes, a “gtfo” response.

@markimash

They give those examples because that is what historical mm would be. You cant say “i want battles with the vehicles that this faced irl” then say “i dont think it should face that vehicle because even though it faced it irl”.

@markimash

How exactly would you have it as a factor without it leading to more imbalance? If 2 tanks are basically the same yet one was made 30 years later, should that tank be at a higher br simply for the production date?

@markimash

What i am saying is that i am tired of people trying to weasle around with production dates.

Either production dates should be a factor for all brs and we have more imbalance or we dont have it as a factor and balance off of how the tank does.
I will never accept some mix of “we will move this tank up because of its production date but not this one”.

If I was a dictator for a while and could change anything in the game, I would make it full historical with minimal consideration for balance, so without scenarios like Panzer 2 vs KV-1. They are technically historical, but actually not really when deciding tank’s BR, while also not being fun, balanced or sensible.

I actually made a sample here: Create a gap between ww2 and cold war vehicles and tech - #646 by Panter2005 with some exceptions like Tiger 2 105 or Panther 2, which are fictional, but already in the game.

Ramping up the production also matters, some tanks may have entered service at some point, but were produced in meaningful numbers some time later. Such ambiguous things can be bent a little for balance.

It will never happen though, so I want it to be as reasonable as possible. If compromises must be made, then for example most of Swedish vehicles can stay where they are, but should have their APDS shells removed. However things like IKV 103 can go up to 8.0 with 400mm of HEAT pen.

The problem is that right now there is no compromise, everything is for balance. No one cares one bit about historical accuracy.

[markimash]

@comeandseevx

It’s an entirely point and click experience because you don’t have to worry about aiming for weak spots.

Show me a video of your HE round hitting a tiger 2 or panther center mass and killing it. No roof or lower turret shots.

@Panter2005

The problem is that right now there is no compromise, everything is for balance. No one cares one bit about historical accuracy.

probably because this is not a historical game.

And yes, i will suggest you play historical games if you want historical battles. Same reason WoT players would tell me to play a different game if I went to their forum and demanded that they add playable cas and got rid of the HP boxes and circle rng aiming.

[Panter2005]

@MistaFin

I think you underestimate the T54s and 55 tanks. Such a drastic change in br wouldn’t make sense. anyone, like you, should know that other tanks at that BR would be way better. Its still not a very fast tank and its gun is insanely wobbly, as it isn’t stabilized. So sure, it has a nice gun, but it literally sucks at EVERYTHING else. I would any day take a tiger over the M-51

V

@Panter2005

The gun is very good for a 6.0. Regardless of our personal experiences the fact of the matter is that it’s a gun that is not lacking by any means on AMX-30, which is at 8.0.

The M-51 as a platform, while not particularly amazing and much worse than AMX-30, is more than enough to utilize the gun for sniping. It’s even better for hulldown in some regards than AMX-30, because the turret is smaller, but of course it’s still much worse.

The gun is so powerful, that M-51 being a bad platform at 8.0 doesn’t justify it being at 6.0. The tank as a whole is much closer in performance to AMX-30, than a god damn Sherman 76.

Since the gun is too strong and unfair for the tanks at 6.0, it definitely can deal with 8.0 opponents, the platform doesn’t make it impossible to effectively utilize the gun for sniping and there are historical premises to put it next to T-54s, it should be put at 8.0. To emphasize that AMX-30 is a better tank, BR decompression should be done with AMX-30 being put at 8.3 for example.

I would even argue that for example T-54 1951 is a worse tank for sniping than M-51. M-51 has better optics, twice the gun depression, normal turret rotation (doesn’t matter much, but still) and arguably better HEAT shells with slightly less shell velocity and TNT equivalent, but more pen. Of course the main advantage of the T-54 though are powerful APHE shells, which easily one shot all early western MBTs, but when encountering a well-armored enemy, M-51 would be better.

Would you pick a Tiger 1 over M-51 at 8.0 though?

[markimash]

@Panter2005

Would you pick a Tiger 1 over M-51 at 8.0 though?

Ngl, i would still pick the tiger.

[Panter2005]

Then you are a fool. Sounds like it’s a joke though.

[Panter2005]

@markimash

probably because this is not a historical game.

Historical accuracy was used to get the game going by filling a niche and thrown away when the game got popular and it wasn’t needed anymore.

Historical accuracy was sacrificed to dumb down the game, making it more like the other games and attracting the huge casual audience.

[markimash]

Why?

[Panter2005]

You can’t be serious.

[markimash]

I am serious. I would take the tiger 1 over the m51 in a 8.0 match. Only time i would go for the m51 would be for fighting the soviet heavies.

[poopooo]

I think that the real damage should be given to all the bullets, and then rebalance the tanks, it cannot be that they face a Tiger 1 against an M51, but it cannot be that you hit a tank with a HEAT of 400mm penetration and you only kill one or two crew members, in fact I think that is why we have the Br as they are, due to the randomness of the damage of all non-APHE bullets.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@Panter2005

By simply knowing these tanks I have 50% of your authority. By playing the game and this BR I have 80% of your authority. By playing M-51 I have 90% of your authority.

By having as little games as You do and stats like You, what You describe in this topic is simply not true.

I have played this vechicle much more and did better in it to know that HEAT are not as reliable.

@Panter2005

The gun is very good for a 6.0.

The pen is good, nothing more really.

@Panter2005

Regardless of our personal experiences the fact of the matter is that it’s a gun that is not lacking by any means on AMX-30, which is at 8.0.

So all 75mm shermans should be at 5.7 as Jumbo is at 5.7 and is doing well?

@Panter2005

utilize the gun for sniping

Which in this game is not common and doesn’t guarantee success.

@Panter2005

The tank as a whole is much closer in performance to AMX-30, than a god damn Sherman 76.

Jumbo 76 is much more better tank than M-51.

@Panter2005

Since the gun is too strong and unfair for the tanks at 6.0, it definitely can deal with 8.0 opponents

It really isn’t.

The gun itself is not much as at 8.0 vechicles are much more mobile, have more reliable ammo and have stabilization.

@Panter2005

there are historical premises

That are not taken into consideration when talking about any vechicle in WT.

@Panter2005

I would even argue that for example T-54 1951 is a worse tank for sniping than M-51.

lmao

[EddieVanHalo-live]

6.7 is where the real problems used to start now with the M51 and Russian and US artillery the problem has crept down to 6BR and as low as 5 BR with the tier system.
People try to say there is no WW2 but there is and there is an over lap where Cold war and WW2 meet,no denying it.
Some of these vehicles do stretch the balance issue out quite a bit.

[light165neptune-psn]

@Panter2005

What?

I was referring to the ZTS63.

[Panter2005]

@ULQ_LOVER

By having as little games as You do and stats like You, what You describe in this topic is simply not true.

I have played this vechicle much more and did better in it to know that HEAT are not as reliable.

I give up. Your only argument is that you’re a better player, even when I explained to you why this argument is worthless. It’s astonishing how little information actually gets through your skull. It’s the same thing over and over again.

@ULQ_LOVER

So all 75mm shermans should be at 5.7 as Jumbo is at 5.7 and is doing well?

What kind of backwards logic is that, it makes me believe you can’t think logically.

@ULQ_LOVER

The pen is good, nothing more really.

@ULQ_LOVER

Jumbo 76 is much more better tank than M-51.

Lmao, of course, Jumbo 76 performs better against T-54s than M-51, simply because it has 13.2hp/t instead of 11.5, a stabilizer and APHE. Naturally 200mm pen@60 degrees 500 meters on M-51 vs 48mm of pen@60 degrees 500 meters on Jumbo 76 is an irrelevant detail.

@ULQ_LOVER

Which in this game is not common and doesn’t guarantee success.

No one cares when it hinders the whole German tech tree.

@ULQ_LOVER

That are not taken into consideration when talking about any vechicle in WT.

Should be.

@ULQ_LOVER

lmao

For sniping it is.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@Panter2005

I give up. Your only argument is that you’re a better player, even when I explained to you why this argument is worthless. It’s astonishing how little information actually gets through your skull. It’s the same thing over and over again.

My argument is that I have played this vechicle much more and that Your own words doesn’t match with Your performance.

@Panter2005

What kind of backwards logic is that, it makes me believe you can’t think logically.

It is the same logic as saying that gun of M-51 (HEAT round) can work at 8.0 so M-51 should be at 8.0

@Panter2005

Lmao, of course, Jumbo 76 performs better against T-54s than M-51

Jumbo 76 is better than M-51 at 6.3., I know it is hard to read but again try.

@Panter2005

No one cares when it hinders the whole German tech tree.

It doesn’t hinder anything. It can be frontally destroyed by Pz IV.

@Panter2005

Should be.

Of course not.

@Panter2005

For sniping it is.

lmao x2

[ZendikarHaven]

@Panter2005

It will never happen though, so I want it to be as reasonable as possible. If compromises must be made, then for example most of Swedish vehicles can stay where they are, but should have their APDS shells removed. However things like IKV 103 can go up to 8.0 with 400mm of HEAT pen.

please shut up and listen to what you are saying for a second, because you have no idea what you are saying

You would gut most of the swedish tree with this- Ikv would be basically useless at that BR due to horrid gun handling and an atrocious velocity. Removing APDS shells would make the '63 variant of the Pvkv M/43 completely useless. Stuff like the PT-76, Pvkv IV- hell, the Lago I isnt even good right now, and the APDS is its one saving grace.

APDS/HEAT-FS is not inherently powerful, and in many cases can straight up be worse then APHE. At , the BR the Ikv is at I would take a long '75, and even the shermans short '75 over it- its simply not good at that BR.

The Ikv can be killed by 7.7 MGs and has a horrendous shell velocity. The PT has a absolutely horrible HEAT-FS round, is pretty slow, and can be killed by .50cals.

@Panter2005

he problem is that right now there is no compromise, everything is for balance. No one cares one bit about historical accuracy.

Because it is a game, not a historical simulator.

[GNDM_Panzer]

" iT nEeDs To Be 8.o CuZ iT nO fAiR fOr MuH tiGoOoOr "

Utterly ridiculous. Everything within the M-51’s current BR range can pen it with little to no hassle. It’s a glass cannon with almost hand’s down the worst gun handling in the game, with a shell that is questionable at best due to how RNG the damage potential is.

[ZendikarHaven]

@GNDM_Panzer

with almost hand’s down the worst gun handling in the game,

Nah, that one goes to the Pvkv IV.

[GNDM_Panzer]

That’s why I said almost.