Real shatter 1.0.....2.0....3.0?

[_Baum]

@KillaKiwi

I already commented on the video that he talks alot of bullshit about the performance of 20mm Mineshells.

HAHAHAHAHAHA
So the source showing briitish and american army documents as well as archive photos showing what is described in those documents is “bullshit” sure mate. Go get your foil hat

@KillaKiwi

That picture he provided is just a Spitfire that was hit by something.

As stated in the documents he provided this pictzuire is from an RAF report on this planes actions. So this is a photo of a spitfire which faced 20mm german mine shells and was evaluated by the poeple at the time as such. Go on I am at line 2 and you have already made quite the show of stupidity

@KillaKiwi

Infact we can clearly see in that image that the hole made into the plane is smaller than the Pilots head

Well yea as stated “about the size of the face” which for a normal human face would be what? 20 by 25cm?

@KillaKiwi

that a 20mm ShVAK with 6-8g of TNT equivalent will produce a somewhat larger hole than that. (He also shows a Japanese 20mm that created a larger than head-sized hole in a B-24)

Yea, but also less shrapnel. It is almost like the Minengeschoss is designed to cause more shrapnell and focuses on that while the Japs decided to go with more of a surface explosion? Alos the Spit was penetrated and the shell exploded while stuck in the side plate. The B 24 was clearly not penetrated and the hole moves along the joints of the plate.
Even pictures are hard to understand it seems

@KillaKiwi

So saying it was a Mineshell, that has around 30g of explosive, which would result in a much larger hole from the blast, is completele nonsense.

Again first learn HOW sth is supposed to work before telling people what you think is the case.

@KillaKiwi

Everything we see in that picture describes the performance of the FI-T shell instead of a hit by a Mineshell.
We have “powder burns” which makes no sense. It’s explosive, it’s not gun powder.

The fucking what mate? First those are sthod marks as stated in the vifeo which are what is left after a charge goes off, like we know have on our planes near the MG ports after firing. Why is it outside? well because that is where the charge of a Mineshell is located. The much larger grey part is damage to the frame as well as dirt left from the main explosive.

@KillaKiwi

That kind of damage would practically have no effect on the airplane.
In the second example we see 3 hits from FI-T shells and the airplane made it back to base.
In WT it would have lost it’s tail.

Again you are claiming stuff disproven by reading provided sources. The Pictures and reports are either directly from british archives or from books which quote said archives.
“This is clearly a FI hit. WHAT DO I CARE ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE BRITISH POST MORTEM ANLYSIS SAID IT WAS 20MM MINENGESCHOSS. I SAID FI SO IT IS FI HUR DUR”

@KillaKiwi

I shoot of the tail of a Bf 109 with 6 hits from 13mm explosive rounds in test-flight, that should cause less damage than three 20mm FI-T rounds.

And?
First your claimed shell type is still not true no matter how often you repeat it, second where is your source that it does not deal that much damage?

@KillaKiwi

Do I speak chinese?
I said that the blast from a dozen 20mm rounds wouldn’t be enough to destroy a planes wing structure enough to bring it down, which a few rounds in WT will do by just making the wing snap.

No you are speaking bullshit. You have 0 sources just claims. You claim the source we use is wrong by providing ZERO sources to your claim. All you are doing is wasting our time with your nonsense rant.

@KillaKiwi

A dozen 20mm HEI rounds would most likely bring down a fighter due to damage inflicted to critical components. Afterall we’re talking more than one kg of steel fragments, blast damage and burning incendiary compount. Very unlikely not to cripple one critical system which would bring it down.

Another claim zero sources and every source I could find disagrees with you so please go ahead provide us with your sources or finally stay put

@KillaKiwi

It’s just clear that planes shouldn’t lose their wings, tails or other controls (rudder/elevator) from just 1-2 20mm rounds

They don`t. You already got told twice that this is because of the game engine. A single shell disabeling all rudder control is however very much possible, even if the rudder is still attatched.

All you do is make claim which contradict sources provided (which you baselessly claim is wrong) and give 0 counter sources for any of your arguments. Then you come with “ingame” pictures of sth you did once in a fully controlled environment

[Morvran]

Hispanos on the spitfire have been though. And that is what im in when chasing a Fw-190

[KillaKiwi]

@_Baum

“This is clearly a FI hit. WHAT DO I CARE ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE BRITISH POST MORTEM ANLYSIS SAID IT WAS 20MM MINENGESCHOSS. I SAID FI SO IT IS FI HUR DUR”

Oh yeah. So where is that report?
How would they even know what kind of shell it was. They didn’t shoot the plane, the enemy did.

[_Baum]

@KillaKiwi

Oh yeah. So where is that report?
How would they even know what kind of shell it was. They didn’t shoot the plane, the enemy did.

I thought you watched the video?

And GIVE ME YOUR SOURCES OR STAY PUT

[Morvran]

I dont think it gets much better than this

Messerschmitt Bf 109 | Better than the Spitfire?

[Morvran]

Quick search of the national archives, does show that there are images for damaged spitifre, that may show the information we are after in that regard, but they arent digitised. I’ll keep looking, for other sources. But I think what we have now is pretty close, just need aircraft by aircraft tweaks

[KillaKiwi]

I see. I understood that wrong.

Before the bug fix it was actually very hard to down a plane by having it lose either wing or tail.
Now that explosive shells are back being insanely strong you only need a couple of htis to down an enemy.

I actually had a game pre-fix with the Sptifire Mk XIVe shooting down 2 Bf 109 K-4s and three Ju 288s using the Tracer belt with Hispanos. Since HEI damage wasn’t as broken as before to the point where you want to have only HE, I took the tracer belt since it gives you the same amount of AP as HEI rounds.

AP can snipe pilots through armor and destroy engines while HEI can do pretty much anything except pierce armor.

Now we’re back the point where 20mm AP is never preferable over HEI rounds, simply because they cut planes into pieces as well as deal high damage to engines.

[KillaKiwi]

@_Baum

I thought you watched the video?

How is watching a video of a guy claiming something a source?

[Morvran]

@KillaKiwi

AP can snipe pilots through armor and destroy engines while HEI can do pretty much anything except pierce armor.

Now we’re back the point where 20mm AP is never preferable over HEI rounds, simply because they cut planes into pieces as well as deal high damage to engines.

Ground target belts were the only thing I found effective. THe HE rounds were useless and AP was the way to go. Was in the Mk24 Spitfire vs an Me262, put over a 100 rounds into one with stealth belts, 2 crits, no kill. Similar engagement with ground belts equipped in the next match, kill after 20 or so rounds.

Spitfire engagement

That is a video of me fighting a Fw-190 post changes. I blow his tail off with around a dozen rounds (not including 303s). I had already damaged it. so may have been previously weakened. I dont think it would have blown his tail off IRL (though this a DM game engine limitation), but certainly would have destroyed his elevator or control veins and the results would have been the same. Based upon the IWM video, it didnt take much for a sptifire to down a german fighter with a cannon, according to the person speaking (I think was a spitfire pilot) didnt take more than 1 or 2 rounds to do critical damage

[_Baum]

@KillaKiwi

How is watching a video of a guy claiming something a source?

And how is reading what a sourceles guy (you) is claiming about an actual video with documents and photos more reliable than said information from the video.

You make no sense. You make wild claims without anything to back it up. So once again I want to have your sources. If you claim one source is wrong you must certainly have access to a better one which made you believe such a thing.

Your claim that the shots show FI round and not Mineshells is also taken out of thin air. So correct these issues first.

I gave you quite a list of claims out of you whcih need sources.

Otherwise you are just like a random child on a forum crying for attention by labeling anything it sees as wrong without any proof to those claims.

[KillaKiwi]

@_Baum

You make no sense. You make wild claims without anything to back it up. So once again I want to have your sources. If you claim one source is wrong you must certainly have access to a better one which made you believe such a thing.

I explained very reasonable, why the picture shown, can’t be Mineshells.
So why should I be wrong while someone else is right, without providing any proof to his claim?

[_Baum]

No you did not. You said one thing, without showing for example another shell hole clearly shwoing an FI hit, and said "yep that proofs it is an FI hole and not an MG(MS) hole.
that is not a comprehensive explanaition and certainly not a source confirming your claim. At best we have a situation where one side (a youtuber who makes a living showing off WWII stuff and how things work) claims it is a 20mm MG and the other, a rando on a WT Forum who I don´t know what he might have produced, claiming it is an FI shell hit.

And without showing any proof to his claim? The very first part of his video contains multiple documents showing the designed workings of an MG shell and an explanaition on it. Then he shows a picture which matches said description quite well. So at the very least there is more information and trust there than with your claims.

[Morvran]

Arguing isnt going to help either way. What are the facts

• Canons were added to fighters to give them increased lethality when engaging heavier targets such as bombers. These weapons were highly effective at that, and so we can assume they did high damage vs lighter targets like fighters

• We have a semi-confirmed source showing that a Spitfire was put out of action by a single cannon round from a BF109, though narrowly survived

• We have a report from a spitfire pilot via IWM (I consider a good source) that a german fighter didnt take more than 1 round usually to go down. (at least from a hispano).

[RedEye_ツ]

that’s a bit off topic but, what sound mod are you using in the clip?
I will delete this afterwards

[KillaKiwi]

@_Baum

And without showing any proof to his claim? The very first part of his video contains multiple documents showing the designed workings of an MG shell and an explanaition on it. Then he shows a picture which matches said description quite well. So at the very least there is more information and trust there than with your claims.

So how exactly does a Japanese 20mm create a larger hole into a B-24 fuselage than a 20mm Mineshell with three times the explosive amount hitting a Spitfire?
Care to explain?

And now, what he explaines about the shell makes no sense in when looking at that picture of the Spitfire.

In fact (at 1:41) he even used a picture of a FI-T round exploding, from a US report about bomber casulties, and claims it’s the the deadly fragmentation of a Mineshell.
How dense can you be?

Not to mention he even makes that stupid claim that Mineshells entered a planes structure 2/3 before it exploded. Which is a bunch of bullshit since early Mineshells used the same point detonation fuze as the FI-T round and while later they did adopt different priming charges which delayed the detonation 20-75cm into the airframe.

[Morvran]

Epic thunder https://www.epicthunder.net/

[KillaKiwi]

What do you mean?

Just your typical WW2 Vehicle documentary with some history lesson and commentary from some 80 year old Pilots.

[_Baum]

@KillaKiwi

So how exactly does a Japanese 20mm create a larger hole into a B-24 fuselage than a 20mm Mineshell with three times the explosive amount hitting a Spitfire?

Already did.
The hit hole is bigger because it bend the metal along the seams of the plate. Which is why the edges are strangely rectengular.

@KillaKiwi

Not to mention he even makes that stupid claim that Mineshells entered a planes structure 2/3 before it exploded. Which is a bunch of bullshit since early Mineshells used the same point detonation fuze as the FI-T round and while later they did adopt different priming charges which delayed the detonation 20-75cm into the airframe.

So source again? For that please.

You like to say a lot of stuff without anything to back it up

[_Baum]

@Morvran

We have a report from a spitfire pilot via IWM (I consider a good source) that a german fighter didnt take more than 1 round usually to go down. (at least from a hispano).

I would change that to “burst” as “hit” in thsie sense can mean “the hit of a single burst” As they where not shooting single bulets

[KillaKiwi]

Here you can read all about German ammunition from actual German documents:
http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/DECKBL.HTM

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_H/BLATT_05a.HTM

20mm Mineshell from 1942 which either uses Duplexkapsel or the VC VD* delay charges.

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_2/BLATT_01.HTM
http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_2/BLATT_02.HTM
http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_2/BLATT_03.HTM

VC 70 even delays 0.75m ± 0.25m depending on the range.
http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_2/BLATT_05.HTM