Real shatter 1.0.....2.0....3.0?

Game Discussion General Discussion
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430

We’re basically back to nukereal shatter from a bit over a month ago.

https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/150403191997229636

B18B tail in 1 Type 99 Mk2 shell.
P-47D tail with single shell.
Bf 109 G6 wing with a single shell.

Yes, some parts of planes feel very durable, like T18B or B-17 wings, but fighter wings and tails in general are no match for single 20mm, even HEF-T with 8g TNT equivalent. Which is bollocks of course.

After travelling for 500m IT starts overtaking M-geschoss.
At higher alt, it happens a bit later.
Genrally from behind this means when you and enemy are travelling normal combat speeds, anything above 350m will have IT striking bit earlier. The difference gets much bigger past 400m.
Remember, when flying at 120m/s at sea level the shell is fired at 120m/s higher speed and lighter M-geschoss will bleed that additional speed even faster.

But generally at v. short range M-geschoss arrives first, at longer range IT has the advantage, at most common 250-450m again, depending on the angle and alt) there is v. little difference, luckily and since even IT has dogpoop ballistics, shots at higher distances are mostly fired vs targets that are either higher alt or stalling or v. big.

But overal - landing good shots with MG151/20 is a bit more tricky.

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431

…i am wondering why you play J2M2. I remember some posts of you in the old forum that you hate these things…

NVM - nice 7 kill match - GG

PS: Your team had 8 airspawn fighters - and the team enemy 2 Bf 110s. Outstanding balance of the MM…

432

Why?
If Gaijin is not moving blatantly OP planes up, I decided I’ll just get kinda decent with them. At 4.7 they are still dominating, especially with the new guns.

And the worst thing about balance is, I sometimes check enemy and my team’s composition. Often my team gets a few lvl 60+ 60%+ WR guys, while the other team barely beats lvl 30 and 50% WR. I mean, what were their chances? Of course opposite happens too - I kill 3 guys in B7A2, get into dogfight with 4th, so basically I’ve elliminated 4 enemy fighters from the fight with my taem, and eventually it turns out enemy has 4-5 fighters up while my team has 1 AFK guy left :D

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433

Summary:

La-5 → Wing shot off
J22-B → Wing shot off
P-47D → Tail shot off - Pilot killed
B18B → Tail shot off
Bf 109 F-4 → Tail shot off - Wing shot off
Yak-9T → Already damaged wing shot off
Bf 109 G-6 → Wing shot off

And that with one of the weaker WW2 fighter cannons, that only fires at 500 RPM.
A ShVAK delivers 20% more mass and was one of the weaker 20mm cannons, due to the relatively small projectile.

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434

The funny part is the amount of shells on target. I think only 1 was needed in large part of these kills, I’m fairly certain only 1 struck that G6 too and it was HEF-T.

I kinda get why do wings rip off so easily - because if aerodynamics worked correctly and pilot wasn’t able to learn how to fly without aileron’s and only half of the elevator in the span of 0,1s, while making 1000 control inputs a second to correct plane’s erratic behaviour, we’d have a killstealer’s paradise with planes in all kinds of spins all over the place.

Anyway, Type 99 Mk2 essentialy behaves like 30mm vs most fighters.
I’ll have to try Shvak but I think it’ll do the same thing, and since Shvak has extremely good accuracy, Yak-3U can 1-tap wings and tails since both shells strike almost the same spot.

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435

I think generally, right now, the firepower of planes like F4U4B is simply legendary.
Ripped a wing off Ta-152H with a single shell, or that’s what it looked like to me.

shot 2023.12.20 22.19.50
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But it’s a game where Strikemaster that I killed (it lost a wing) happily continued to fly, pull lead on F4U4B, maneuver for another shot behind him, then ran away like nothing ever happened.

436

I’ve had games with the F8F1B unloading into a TaH, crit hit hit hit, etc, and he seemed fine. I’ve rarely 1 shot them tbh unless you get a good burst in - but that isn’t a 1 shot… they still seem annoyingly sturdy even after this damage boost

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437

Nah, they seem to be made of paper, like everything else. Type 99 Mk2 and US 20mm rip things to pieces almost instantly.

Ta-152H used to be super sturdy. But no more. Of course AD-4 has 4x20mm, but I’ll try AD-2 and I expect similar time to kill actually.

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438

Same, I’ve been getting hits and crits with these guns as well, surely they are very strong but it’s not 1 shot every time.

439

That’s the whole point here. Certain planes have flight performance out the ass, but they are sitting at too low a BR due to the guns. Now that that playing field is leveled somewhat, maybe we can see those planes FINALLY move to the BR they should sit at… Yak-3, 3P, 9U, 3U, La7/La7B20, for example. But also XP50, XP55, F4U4B, J2M2 and some others. Then hopefully we can also start taking some other planes back to their proper BR like P51D10/D30, P51C, D9/D12, G6, and others … Having planes with too good flight performance at too low a BR due to guns is pushing a lot of compression as well into the mid tier.

Yes the game needs rebalacing if this gun damage stays, and that’ll take some BR revisions, but in the end we may end up in a game where its more balanced around actual flight performance instead of nearly entirely around how many guns you have that determines your efficiency (see where the J21 is, f.e.) … even though, volume of fire and ammo count still matters it isn’t the end all qualification for a high BR to the same degree as it was before.

I for one can’t wait for the end of “overwhelming firepower” determining things.

SO8K anyone?

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440

Yeah honestly wish they would turn down the damage by like 25%, my B-29 should not be getting it’s tail ripped off by a short burst of 20mm

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441

It’s probably a mix of too much damage and damage models but here:

F8F-1B lost the outher tail section from two 20mm ShVAK FI-T hit:

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/aOUmA9_4Wo8

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/hQDgsXb7Plg

Two hits. One completely destroyed the left wing flap while the other took of the wing tip.

In protection analysis it’s impossible to damage the flap directly without damaging the wing section as well. So probably both FI-T hit the outher wing section and some random fragments destroyed the flap.

That’s like 50% wing area destroyed from two 96g shells carrying 4.13g A-IX-2.

Hate to break it to people but in reality that would have done like nothing to the F8F-1.

20mm HEFI is just the shotgun eqivalent of 7.7mm. Compared to 20mm AP you trade the super lethal direct hit damage for a blast of fragments that can indirectly damage components while also setting leaking fuel on fire.

Those hits would have slightly impeded the F8Fs flight characteristics while potentially damaging the ammunition feed for the guns, rendering them inoperable.
Damage to offensive guns is of course still not modeled for some reason.

I’m pretty sure that 20mm API would have a greater chance to bring down the F8F with those kinds of hits. The round will start to tumble after impact increasing hit surface, potentially cutting through control capbles and destroying wing spars.

442

In reality you would not have 16v16 TDM, and needing the ability to kill most of them without landing due to game timer of 25 minutes, you would not have the same priorities either (like you know, staying alive and not grind asap for RP).

This is a game, not reality. You need to think about things from a gameplay perspective.

Is it fun to have to shoot someone 20 times before he goes down because instructor will keep him airborne and your guns don’t do damage? Do you want 1 kill a match and have to work on that 20 minutes? You feel like a plane with 120 rounds of cannons should be able to get maybe 2 kills if even? Technically not be able to down a large bomber because just simply doesn’t have the firepower?

Nah man.

Reality. No thanks. Make it a fun game, create also a skill gap to challenge people. Make every plane viable in the context of WT.

Feel damage is too high? Don’t spend time in front of someone’s guns is a good starting point to improve.

443

You just need to hit the right spot.
Why do you need to have the plane go down by hitting any part of it?
Isn’t mouse aim and third person not enough?

I can say something just as smart: Learn to aim.

Yeah why not? You think that 120 20mm rounds is a lot?

A Bf 109 having just a single 20mm was pretty underpowered, despite having 200rds for the gun.
Now imagine just having 120.

Also when some players were whining about realShatter no longer cutting things in half, I was still able to get 3-4 kills sometimes with a Yak-3s single 20mm and 12.7mm.
I was pilot sniping, destroying engines or simply setting them on fire.

It worked because I was hitting them where it should hurt. But I wasn’t shooting at them from 500m or more.

120rds or not doesn’t matter when you don’t hit. And if you hit, you need to hit the right places, simple as that.

With the current implementation you won’t be able to down a B-17 with a single ShVAK unless you set him on fire and he burns up.
More guns just make it more likely.

But what you suggest is just complete madness.
So a single 20mm with 120rds should easily down a 4-engined bomber?
How does that scale with planes having four cannons or bigger guns?
They will just masscre any bomber out of the sky making bombers nothing but cannon fodder.

Oh no my plane designed to shoot down fighters is not as good at shooting down bombers.
Almost like heavy fighter that has no chance battling fighters are better at shooting down bombers with increased firepower and ammunition capacity.

Quite shocking that planes have different roles, like ground attacking, bombing, intercepting or air superiority fighter.

Expecting any fighter to easily take out a bomber is like demanding that 20mm cannons destroy tanks. Because it’s a game bro, what does it matter, whether it’s realistic. Just let me farm some ground units. /s

Atm bombers are basically just clean-up. They do their thing while fighter take out the enemy fighter, after that everything else is basically a free kill.
The only time they get killed before they bomb a base is when someone plays an intercepter or heavy fighter with air spawn.

444

You’re just funny just like every other person who primarily plays German in this thread… German HEI should do damage, much explosive! But dear god, if other guns can actually damage you then that is just wrong.

Yes, but 3-4 kills isn’t going to carry a game if that’s the ~max you can get out of your ammo. Result? Going back to AF having to throw any advantage you may have had out the window. Maybe not an issue against 1-3 enemies, but there can be 6+.

Yes you are an amazing pilot with zero flaws, 100% accuracy at all times. Come back when you actually able have over 2 kpb, not that high of a bar.

Yes. Easily like a fighter? No, but it shouldn’t be straight up impossible. Your suggestion with “realistic damage” would make that so.

Note you can argue with me all you want on this, but my opinion isn’t going to change. Guns should do damage. Yes I’m off the opinion I should be able to kill 10 fighters with 120 rounds of cannon when I use them only on surefire shots. Yes, every plane should be able to clean up a match in the right hands. TTK should be low, that will create a skill gap. They already somewhat mitigated single pilots being able to dominate by increasing the amount of players in a match. “Nerfing” the damage so that one ammo load can’t kill a significant amount of players on enemy team to swing the match with some consistency, or give a fighting chance in a 1 vs many situation I will never ever support. Real or not doesnt mean anything to me.

3 Likes
445

95% of the planes I played in the last few months are non-German planes.
So not sure what gave you that idea.

Reversing your argument, you just sound like you want to have the same treatment.
You already said that you disregard realism, so basically everything works fine as long as it suits you.

Yeah well, big news pal. The game isn’t called Counter Strike or CoD.

To emphasis my previous statement:

You already said that you disregard realism, so basically everything works fine as long as it suits you.

What about planes that actually have the guns and ammo to do it? They probably don’t have the best flight performance.

So you want both. You want to fly the plane with the best performance while completely disregarding the firepower difference by just making guns so strong that it doesn’t matter to have more guns or ammo.

No the arugment is that the guns can work, but what you want is the no skill treatment.
Just spray, and when you hit you want the other aircraft to be dead.

Of course I can also waste all my ammo trying to chase someone who is defensive flying but how is that an argument for anything?

Not really.
There’s a difference between realistic damage and HE rounds just breaking planes appart on contact.
But whenever Gaijin changes anything, it basically comes down to this.

Doesn’t help that we now have RNG shatter in addition to RNG fire chance.

When I advocate for realistic damage it would mean a big overhaul of damage mechanics and not simply nerfing HE rounds.

So the same as ever. Just not very likely to happen during a match, to get that level of accuracy.

When you hit with 50% of rounds,which makes 6 rounds per fighter, that’s pretty likely to take them out.

However when you spray 12 rounds and expect a single hit to destroy them, then no.

Well, I guess that brings an end to the discussion.

446

This is blatant BS.

Luckily the Air Force made research on the topic:
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a800394.pdf

(page 32 and 33 are relevant here, but you should read everything as it is very helpful to understand the damage these rounds do. Also consider that this test ignores cumulative damage, so if a hit didn’t kill the plane the plane is magically repaired before the second round hits in that simulation. That’s important when they calculate how much damage several hits do, they do say that in the paper, but i’ve posted this several times and so many people leave that bit out, even though the formula at page 42 states this outright)

The Bearcat was hit at least two times. The one hit kill probability on a P-47D is 12% for 20mmHEI and 14.1% for 20mm incindiary rounds when a random part of the plane is hit (here a vulnerable part was hit, making the chance actually higher, but there is no data for that). You got hit (at least) 2 times, so even without cumulative Damage.

Since you were hit with HEI this results in a kill chance of 22.56%. That’s if you were in a P-47D which is known for being sturdy, so we can assume the kill chance on a Bearat is higher.

So in at least 1 out of 5 cases the outcome we witnessed would be the real life result.
Since we do not have any control group, the outcome seems fine. These events are realistic and far from rare if they are the case in more than 20% of the cases IRL.

You were talking out of your a**, you shouldn’t do that. When there is real life data, there is little excuse.

now keep in mind that we are talking RB/AB which has hit percentages north of 20% thanks to mouse aim) while IRL the hit percentages where more like 2%, these outcomes shouldn’t be rare in WT at all.

Think of it these weapons were effective IRL even though they hit 10 times less then you do in AB/RB.

If you want realism, play SB. Mouse aim ruins every resemblance of realism and expecting the same time to kill like in history while playing with mouse aim is just stupid.

6 Likes
447

Something that could be done is to make weapons more innacurate, to a point. Another thing that needs to be done is the refinement of damage models. we need more sections, and sections of aircraft need to have different health pools. A wing root should have more health then a wingtip, because it is thicker. Another thing that can be done is to scale damage with aircraft size. so while a 20mm will make short work of a late war fighter, bombers such as the B-29 were fairly resistant, up to a point. this game has thrown out historical realism a long time ago, and frankly, balance is more important. Armor should also have a larger role to play in damage mitigation.

448

This is already the case, you can see the amount of HP in the FM files, see here for example on the B25

Also the case, bombers have much higher HP on aircraft parts than fighters

And it does

449

I would like to point out, there’s plenty of middle ground between current 1-2 shotting fighters and requiring 20 hits to make them feel anything.

I mean, MG151/20 requires about 3-6 hits to P-47 wing to rip it off. Why 3-6? Because 1/3 of Air belt and 2/5 of Stealth belt is AP-I/IT/APHE.

The tail od P-47D will probably break in 2 hits from M-geschoss.

IMO buffing tails’ HP by 50% would be a good start.

Then we can just adjust the damage of all cannons in game to reasonable values.
We do NOT want some absolutely ridiculous contrast between M-geschoss and f.e. Shvak FI-T, like we had after initial real sh*tter.
But it would be nice if it took more than 1 hit to cripple a plane, and more than 2 to bring it down.

Shvak requiring 50% more hits to down P-47 or Spitfire would not be game-breaking, considering higher ROF, superior ballistics and generally superior gun platforms and better belts.
IMO planes “tanking” 2-3 hits without sustaining debilitating damage should not be something extraordinary.
Because spraying all over the place should not be rewarded.

Nowadays I die from absolutely botched shots, generally - I dodge by avoiding the shots that are lead fairly correctly. If someone absolutely whiffs his shot, there’s a chance I’ll fly into it and take 1 stray shell.
Right now it’s game over.
This further encourages playing it super safe, avoiding any risks, being systematic and very, very boring.
I have fairly good aim. I like when my targets get hit multiple times. Why? Because then I know it wasn’t luck. It was consistent gunnery.
Even with 120 shells + 2 MGs all dealing more realistic damage (you’d need 5-9 hits instead of 1-3) you can kill 5-6 planes with consistent gunnery. And 5-6 is plenty.
It’s a team game. Don’t expect.to kill the entire enemy team on your own, unless it’s 6.0 6v6 clustergaijoob.

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