For starters, the Ratel 90 has a Milan ATGM and an autocannon with decent mobility and pretty bad armor which is similar to the Marder 1 in the German tech tree, but the Marder has more armor and less mobility. I want to provide my point that a 6.7 ATGM that can dog on 5.7 vehicles from across the map is pretty dumb, especially since it can reposition quite quickly. The MILAN ATGM is found in the Marder series of tanks as is supposed to help cope with the super unreliable autocannon. Why the Ratel 90 isn’t even 7.0 at the least is the most confusing thing I’ve ever seen. It’s been a problem ever since I started grinding tech trees like the USA and USSR. I just want it up in BR to make grinding a new tech tree not as miserable.
First of all you’re talking about the Ratel 20 not the Ratel 90, second of all, it’s good but not overpowered. It dies to everything. It’s like an M44 but worse, it can kill most things in the right position but everything can kill it.
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Firstly, it’s not OP at all. Secondly, you haven’t used any Ratel. You would know it isn’t OP if you actually played it.
The one you need to watch out for is the ZT3A2 at 8.3. That will nuke your German tanks.
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Say, do you think is it possible for someone who played only one airframe, say Phantoms, to know to not dogfight some other airframe, say, the 12.3 M2K?
Ply enough times against something and you will probably know what are its strong and weak points even without playing it.
You can know what sort of playstyle a vehicle may require without using it, be it from flight characteristics, armour profile, weapons and so on.
But you’ll never fully know.
This topic is proof in point.
(btw, not that I’m a Ratel 20/90 expert, I don’t rate them, I don’t play them. I play ZT3A2, instead. I’ve heard the changes to the 20mm with the ATGM sight have made it better. Heck, last time I used the Ratel 20, the ATGM was bugged and the missile would dive directly into the ground. They fixed it after a couple of days (2021). However, the main downside to all the Ratel based vehicles is the chasis itself. It’s large, it’s not very mobile, and it is fragile. I would trade it for the Marder chasis in an instant. Might jump in Ratel 20 over next couple days and fix my KDR in it).
PS: Muting this topic because the guy couldn’t even name the right Ratel. He’s describing the Ratel 20 and calling it Ratel 90.
thats ratel 20, not 90.
Ive gotten two nukes in the vehicle, one of them was 5 mins after match start in a full uptier because russian and german mains suck so let me tell you how it actually plays:
While i agree it should go up significantly you overestimate how goood it is and dont realise the extreme levels player have to compensate for a useless platform to even be competitive
Its fat, slow and unarmoured and too big to hide. Its ATGM while should not be seen below 7.3 is the only thing of merit to the vehicle, it capitalises ONLY on how pathetically bad players of that BR range is. MILAN is only useful as a close-range shotgun as it wanders off target at range and will fall out of the sky from slight corrections
while at a glance these vehicles are similar The marder has armour, mobility and a lazer rangefinder to guide the semi unreliable ammunition at good range for harassive fire.
Marder should be 8.3 its far too powerful for 7.7, Ratel 20 should be 7.3
i firmly think that missile shouldnt be seen below 7.3. it may be an ass platform but its weaponry is too much for a tiger 1
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Ratel 20 I believe you mean? Ratel 20 is ridiculous at 6.7 yes but it shouldn’t be as high as Marder A1- so currently 7.3 seems fitting
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well thats the issue isn’t it, it can’t go higher and it can’t stay at the same BR.
The Ratel 20 you’re describing (not the 90) has a near-useless autocannon and the MILANs you claim “dog on” everything. The positives really end there. The cannon barely works unless you’re being rushed by something just as poorly armoured as you are, or a truck SPAA player, the entire thing is .50 cal-able from any angle and for a wheeled vehicle it really is pitifully slow. I personally enjoy it as I think it’s a refreshing break from traditional cannon gameplay at 6.7 (and one of the better vehicles in a UK 6.7 lineup), but it’s hardly OP, barely even being competitive against a BR full of heavy tanks with HMGs.
MILANs, while obviously being ATGMs (which, I get your point, is frustrating at 6.7) have their interesting quirks such as guidance issues, as well as being slow enough to be MG-able and are mounted on the HUGE (specifically long) platform that is the Ratel. The bonus is, if you miss the missile with your MGs, chances are you’ll kill the Ratel because of its complete lack of any sort of armour.
If you’re struggling to counter it, remember that if it moves while spotted, it dies. Unless you hit the empty compartment in the rear, it’s almost a guaranteed one-shot kill. Apart from that, treat it like literally any other tank with a gun, and if it’s holding an area and either avoid said area or try to kill it. The main reason the MILANs work well at 6.7 is because people get too confident, run out into the open, get evaporated, then complain about how “OP” a missile is because it can do the same thing a main gun can do whilst having less ammo and usually requiring more shots for a kill.
A higher BR would absolutely ruin the vehicle which relies on new, unaware players to achieve anything without some changes or buffs, which would again make the vehicle even more advantageous in downtiers to lower BRs, resulting in much the same issue.
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Milans are trash anyway.
Thank you for correcting my mistake on the Ratel model. I do agree with Caernarvon02 though, the ATGM it has shouldn’t be seen below 7.3. I can understand MCLOS ATGMs though being below 7.3 as they are much harder to use. Comparing the Ratel 20 to an M44 is like comparing the Fox to the PzH 2000, ove is very much better than the other which is why I compared the Ratel to the Marder 1 (where both platforms are bad, but have that SACLOS ATGM).
It is utter garbage at 6.7. In fact uptiering it would buff it, considering you face more light targets there. Good luck penning them with 20mm HVAP though, lmao.
I was corrected on the Ratel model earlier. I compared it to the Marder 1 since both cannons are basically useless at their own BRs and sometimes lower. I use the MILAN countless times on the Marder and absolutely shred anything with that alone. The Marder from my experience is about as bad as the Ratel 20, except the Marder has a better crew layout. I only really have relied on autocannons to take down planes. I have defeated Ratel 20s several times before, but have died much more to it because of the capabilities of the MILAN (and the general IQ of teammates I get being 2, so they can’t MG it).
I have not found an issue with the MILAN system regarding guidance or speed. The Marder is also quite a bulky tank due to the layout of the platform and I find it particularly difficult to use it effectively. You mention spotting the tank as well, but relying on the enemy being spotted by a teammate is useless to begin with. I agree with your point on to try to avoid the area or try to kill it, but even when I do that, it’s far behind enemy lines (because they can basically sit halfway across a map and snipe with the ATGM). A more fair comparison to the Ratel 20 is the M551 Sheridan (though not being as bulky) as it also has a stupid ATGM that can fire on the move, and horrible armor with okay mobility, but it is a higher BR by a long shot. Platforms like the Marder in 7.7 are balanced completely as they can still kill like, 2 things in an uptier or downtier with the main cannon, but shred with the MILAN.
The higher BR would kind of nerf it a little, not entirely ruin it. As you said, the gameplay relies on newer and unaware players to get a kill, let alone progress with it, relying on zero skill at all to kill somebody. Also, ATGMs are pretty powerful, not OP, because like a tank cannon, you aim for weakspots (crazy concept to some people, not poking any fun at you though). The vehicle in a downtier in 7.7 would face slightly better opponents with some having great skill in that BR range. The vehicle would have a strong lineup around that area as well from my memory of what sits at 7.7 GB. The vehicle is still really low in terms of BR because it shreds anything in 5.7 (which is where some mindless players get a brain, but also where a lot of people quit playing the game, or fall into being a wallet warrior). I get why Gaijin would keep it at the lower BR for profit, but a mostly happy playerbase is much more better than profit.
I hope you have some wonderful games ahead though! I’m still 300k RP away from getting the Leopard 2A5 with a genuine grind, and I’ve started grinding Russia more simply for the T-series tanks.
Uptiering would give it a better chance at fighting more things, but at the cost that you would get more skilled players (most of the time). Which is why 7.0 would be at least a good compromise. You also have the MILAN which is a SACLOS missile, which if they made it an MCLOS missile, it would be more fair to keep it in 6.7, but as long as Gaijin keeps the MILAN a SACLOS missile for the Ratel 20, they have to put it up in BR (like how they do with a lot of other vehicles, the Begleitpanzer is VERY similar to the Ratel 20 in its own BR, but they’re moving it up in BR because of player stats).
That’s the issue with the Maus, which is why they removed it from being researchable, so where is your logic there?
I did mean Ratel 20, yes. 7.7 at the highest and 7.0 at the lowest. 7.3 would be a lot more fitting though, I agree.
I did mean Ratel 20.
That’s the thing, two nukes and one of them 5 minutes in.
That’s the issue with the Marder 1, it may be better in terms of armor and mobility, but it also has a horrible autocannon. The Marder 1 is also fat, (sometimes) slow, and too big to hide (effectively). The ATGM (considering it’s SACLOS), shouldn’t be seen below 7.3, I agree. That’s the issue, it capitalizes on the unskilled players who will either:
A. quit the game
or
B. Become a wallet warrior and waste money on the game to progress out of that BR
I haven’t had a problem with the MILAN at longer ranges with the Marder platform at range or slight corrections.
The Marder does have the laser rangefinder for long ranges because the ammo is unreliable, it’s only good for taking out cannons and tracks to put a good MILAN shot on some heavier targets in the 7.7 BR bracket.
There is an 8.3 Marder, it’s called the Marder 1A3 which is better than the Marder 1 and has better ammunition (from what I remember about the modifications). Marder sucks in 7.7 and I really only use it for anti-air. Ratel 20 should be around 7.0-7.7 (7.3 does seem like a good fit though).
I did my research, and the Marder 1A3 has thermals, HHRA, and the DM63 APDS shells which is why it has the 8.3 BR.
The Ratel shares these disadvantages but to a more extreme degree. The Ratel platform is so bad that there’s a pattern of it moving weapons down by 1.0 BR, both the Eland 90 and Marder A1- have their armament at 6.7 thanks to the Ratels.
I went back to 6.7 and did some messing around now that I’m better(?) at the game than the last time I grinded UK and I feel like the Ratel is either fine where it is or could go to 7.0. I didn’t once use the MILANs, instead using the autocannon to prey on casemate TDs and break barrels. This is probably because I prefer the Charioteer, and the Ratel came second in my lineup (I did go down to test the Ratel, but also wanted to have some fun), so in the late-game missiles do fall out of favour compared to guns. I do have to mention I didn’t get any of those 5.7 downtiers (curse the snail) but if I did I’d be gunning for the Tortoise since it becomes impenetrable unless you see Tigers or the Charioteer since the APDS has very little it can’t pen.
The MILANs can’t be fired on the move as far as I’m aware (I have just tested it as of writing), and in my experience the Marder’s cannon is relatively reliable for a simple reason: its BR. 6.7 is the realm of heavy tanks both for the US and USSR, so the Ratel sits in a tough spot with its autocannon (which did get some use in in my recent games I played to refresh my memory, so it’s not all bad), but at 7.7 the Marder starts facing other very light autocannon vehicles whilst also having a laser rangefinder. The amount of times I’ve been sniped by a Marder’s autocannon in the AMX-10RC and MARS-15 borders on skill issue, but the Ratel doesn’t face those vehicles, instead dealing with “shell shattered” spam vs T29s. Even in downtiers, the cannon doesn’t see much use because, in my experience, nobody really plays light tanks unless it’s to rush spawns at game start, get a couple kills and die. Meanwhile, at 7.7, modern IFVs become a thing, and armour appears to matter a bit less, resulting in the Marder’s autocannon being better (at the BR) than the Ratel’s.
7.7 would mean the Ratel quickly becomes irrelevant due to the presence of better vehicles serving the same role (while I don’t like the Scimitar, the Fox lives in 7.7 players’ minds rent-free). I do like your point about 7.0, but 7.7 would mean it falls out of favour due to it simply being too big with smaller and faster alternatives that get APDS rounds, giving them a use with their autocannons. I’ve never been a fan of autocannon vehicles but was unfortunate enough to play around with the Scimitar, and I’ll happily say its cannon is miles better than the Ratel’s, even though realistically it’s subpar for the BR. With some adjustments (horsepower, getting a laser rangefinder, better ammo belts), the Ratel could definitely sit at a higher BR, even 7.7 like you say.
7.7 UK is also pretty saturated as it is in my memory, so I don’t think more vehicles are needed at that BR. Either way, it’s a fun little rat tank to scurry around in, giving you a nice break from the behemoths that are the Tortoise and FV4005. You have some good games too, enjoy your grind and good luck getting that Leopard.