Depends on launch speed.
Better flight model for dogfighting by… missile?
Lol, they have better turn rate or what?
Well, maybe, but isn’t the R-73 supposed to be the “dominant” close-in weapon, especially now with the lack of 9X?
It is, only trouble that TVC have bugs, but they happens not so often
It kinda is, kinda isnt.
My opinion from the sim pov;
9M is near impossible to see, and extremely reliable in its flare resistance, but that reliability is a double edged sword. On one hand, it will reliably ignore flares, on the other, it will reliably lose the enemy if they flare properly. As for the “hard to see” part, its a definite advantage over the smoky motors, but its also not as big a deal either. If you know the enemy is there, you just pre-flare the WEZ and you’re fine, if you DON’T know the enemy is there, there are a few situations where you might have seen the smoke from a missile launch, but generally speaking, you’d need to be looking at the right spot at the right time for it to actually matter.
R-73 is super unreliable, also as a double edged sword. Both you and your opponent never have a good grasp of if the flares are gonna work or not. In a dogfight, it allows for some crazy/scary shots to be made, particularly from very VERY close, at which ranges its extremely hard to flare if you aren’t pre-flaring its launch heavily.
I like both missiles personally, they have their own use cases they excel in, with the 9M seeming better at ambushes and pre-merge shots, and the R-73 seeming better at close range pressure and post-merge shots.
6 Likes
Theres a joke, that most of US missiles on top tier must be like that.
In spoiler i sent a picture, that mostly illustrates low smoke and reduces smoke.
Depends, launches from 2 to 4 km - yes, nearer R-73/MM2 will be better due of FOV irccm.
Missile smoke production irl is more complex than it is in-game, varying with atmospheric pressure and humidity, which it doesnt in-game. The “smokeless” missiles i-game do actually have a smoke trail, its just extremely hard to see, and could likely be toned up a bit. That being siad, there are US missiles in-game missing reduced smoke motors, namely the AIM-120A/B and the AIM-54C.
FoV IRCCM in-game remains unreliable even at close ranges, though I agree it gets better the closer the missile is, the push-ahead IRCCM just works very robustly in-game unlike FoV reduction
3 Likes
there were 3 serial su-27m…
That’s same.
Ah yes, how i forget about copium with new engines?
It is far from being “dominant”, it is just better in some situations but worse in others.
Despite the IRCCM thing I would still probably say the R-73 is a better dogfight missile due to it’s whole “pulling right off the rail” thing which means it can be used in conjunction with the HMS and not have the HMS be just an extra feature thing.
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This man actually understands the differences between the R-73 and 9M. The main problem with the R-73 is that it is a knife-fight missile that is carried by planes with subpar flight models that DESPERATELY want to avoid knife fights at all costs. A hypothetical Grippen with R-73’s would be a nightmare, as would be a hypothetical R-27ET with the same type of IRCCM as the 9M.
9 Likes
I don’t necessarily agree the russian fighters have significantly inferior FM’s tbh. They aren’t top dog obviously, but they aren’t far behind, particularly the Su-27. HMD + R-73 + extreme AOA capability has gotten me many many kills in the merge, and the difference in rate between the Su-27 and western fighters isnt super large last I checked. Remaining fuel, weapon loads, and pilot skill can pretty easily sway the fight for or against the Su in sim imo. I think it gets its “bad FM” reputation from the fact that it has ABSURD levels of nose authority, which makes it super easy to overpull, its something I had to learn the hard way coming from US fighters. I also think ppl have a massive tendency towards 2C fights and limiter pulling, which accentuates the Russian jets energy retention issues imo.
Also, I dont think the Gripen would use the R-73 better than the russian fighters. The M2K might though. I haven’t flown either though, so I could be wrong. For the most part, I think jets have the correct missiles for their general gameplan in a dogfight.
Rate fighters → 9M to hopefully kill before the merge, or prevent an opponent losing an energy fight from leaving the merge.
AOA fighters → R-73/ Magic II to kill jets at super short ranges in the merge while in a 1C fight.
3 Likes
I disagree. Their flight models are perfect for employment of the R-73. They are substantially better at pulling AOA, particularly at higher speeds than their western counterparts, which allows for high off bore shots against unsuspecting targets. Yes its an all in, but that is the way the blade cuts to allow for such manuevers. The only thing that is holding them back is the underperformance of all narrow FoV IR seekers, which makes flaring, and particularly preflaring so effective against them.
The weakness to pre-flaring is why the 73 would be so much deadlier on something like a Gripen. The Flanker might be able to pull one hard turn but then it is dead in the water. The opponent only has to pre-flare during the Flanker’s window of opportunity to shoot and then the battle is as good as won. Something like the Gripen that doesn’t need to throw all of its energy into one gambit would be much deadlier with the R-73 because the majority of planes can’t pre-flare forever because most planes don’t have hundreds upon hundreds of flares.
We could see this in action if the Yak-141 were permitted access to its R-73s, but gaijin hasn’t given it its R-73s or R-77’s yet.
This is exactly opposite of reality though. Because of the Flankers ability to pull so much AoA, you have to preflare significantly more against it, because it can threaten an R-73 launch so quickly, as compared to a gripen which is pretty obvious when it has shed enough speed to pull AoA.
And fwiw, my experience is even using this tactic with the MiG-29, not the flanker, which as long as you plan accordingly, you can pull hard and then trade altitude to recover speed.
FM is so bad that the G curve falls short of 2 units
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Only for 1-2 times. IRL F-16 can’t pull so hard especially with weapons. In the game uFo-16 can pull 10G and roll with full loadout and fuel tanks.
uFo-15 is the only plane in the game that can do YAW turn without roll at any speed. Must be alien technology. UFO-15 Turn rate are fine BTW.
I’m curious, when the MiG-23 and Su-17 were overpowered, did these forum warriors write the same angry posts?
MiG-23 players after nerf only cried