Aditionally MUSS should have more capabilitys, shouldn’t it ?
I found a source that claims it can alsl jam laser guided ammunitions and alser range finder.
Thats for MUSS 2.0
So they mean with “current generation MUSS” in the artikel MUSS 2.0 ? At least I didn’t got that information out of it.
And they showed MUSS 2.0 this month on Eurosatory in Paris, but all the median besides ESuT only wrote defence against ATGM with the laser based ir jammer and ESuT wrote about the new jamming of IR guided missiles.
Only MUSS 2.0 features that and such feature is still being tested
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I’m not sure if that is still up to date.
As I said there was the presentation of MUSS 2.0 on a Puma S1 and Hensoldt published new infomation on their website. But there they only say: “The jammer is effective against the majority of wire-guided optically tracked missiles”
ESuT claims it is effective against IR guided missiles:
Every other source besides the one I posted earlier and the german one in ESuT just say effective against ATGM.
It’s so confusing that I no longer know what to believe and what not.
IR-guided and wire-guided (including those with IRCM) missiles is the one I can most easily understand, because the “laser based ir jamming” sounds pretty much like DIRCM and they work on aeroplanes against IR-guided missiles. But I don’t quite understand how they can work against laser-guided and laser beam riding missiles.
i checked the website was recently updated when the MUSS 2.0 was presented
as i said before its still in testing phase but what might be confusing you is the thing that the IRCM uses a low frecuency laser beam that operates on the IR spectrum we see on common wire guided ATGMS, in the page they refer to testing MUSS 2.0 functionality against beam riding missiles, check the MUSS 2.0 page rn you are looking at the og MUSS
MUSS 2.0 is already installed and the new Puma being built have it fitted from the start.
“According to a Bundeswehr (german name for the armed forces of Germany) representative in Paris, the army’s entire fleet of Puma infantry fighting vehicles is to be successively equipped with the new MUSS 2.0 protection system from Hensoldt. The intention is apparently to replace older, “worn-out” protection systems as part of maintenance measures. Sooner or later, all older MUSS will be replaced by the more modern version. All Puma vehicles currently being built as part of the second batch will be equipped with MUSS 2.0 from the factory. Compared to the previous version, MUSS 2.0 is characterised by less weight and a smaller silhouette while at the same time increasing its capabilities.”
PSM zeigt luftverlegbaren Schützenpanzer Puma S1 und weiteres Entwicklungspotenzial (hartpunkt.de)
And yes, I already knew your source, but it doesn’t sound like it’s really certain that it will work in the end.
Especially as the source is now a few years old again.
Even if the dazzling fits to the laser based jamming, which is quasi DIRCM, the source I had in the last post is by no means only about the og MUSS.
But it only says something about most wire-guided missiles and nothing about laser-guided munitions or laser beam riding missiles. Let alone IR-guided missiles or laser rangefinders.
MUSS - Multifunctional Self-Protection for Vehicles | HENSOLDT
Then there is this source that is from 2022 and says that the “current generation” of MUSS is already capable of jamming all types of wire-guided missiles, including those with IRCCM, laser-guided munitions and even laser rangefinders.
Active Protection Systems and Suite Controllers for Combat Vehicles - European Security & Defence (euro-sd.com)
And then there is this source from this month, who also wrote an article about the Puma S1 with MUSS 2.0 in the course of the first public presentation and says that the improvement now also consists of being able to jam IR-guided missiles, i.e. something like Spike (at least in LOBL) or Javelin.
“New features include the detection and classification of low power lasers such as those used in beam riders and second generation laser rangefinders. The jamming of IR-guided ATGMs is achieved by the IR jammer, which can be seen on the top of the system.”
Weiterentwickeltes MUSS 2.0 auf Schützenpanzer Puma (esut.de)
And the big question that confuses me is, which of these is correct?
Can the above-mentioned MUSS perhaps already do more than expected, especially because western defence companies tend to understate the capabilities of their technology, or have they perhaps attributed the capabilities achieved by the smoke launcher to the jammer?
And what exactly can MUSS 2.0 do?
Laser based jamming sounds a lot like DIRCM, which is why the jamming or dazzling of IR guided missiles seems the most logical new feature to me. Wire-guided missiles with IRCCM like TOW-2A I could also imagine that you can see the improvements there, because you can also jam the predecessors with the old version.
But laser-beam rider, you always read in the forums that it’s not that easy or some even say it’s impossible.
And apart from one article, I haven’t heard anything about laser-guided weapons. And that’s what confuses me. The different statements about it.
Especially as there are also those who believe that MUSS has exactly the same capabilities as Shtora, even if I can’t understand the comparison because the system is decades older than MUSS.
As you can see, I have been very interested in this topic since the Eurosatory a few weeks ago and it is very unsatisfactory how little concrete information can be found about it, even if this is of course understandable from a military perspective.
its not present in the MUSS 2.0 yet cuz its still being tested, if not it would say it has the laser dazzling there, the beam was already a thing in the original MUSS just that this new one can use a beam that can reach more wavelenght than the original one, it basically can counter stuff like TOW-2’s, i believe the laser dazzling will be fitted in some months if the tests go with what they want
Fixed it
lemme cope
I don’t understand where you get this certainty from. Do you have other sources or do you work for Hensoldt or the Bundeswehr? Because the article you are referring to is 2 years old. So they will have tested it at least once to be able to make a statement about which types of missiles they can jam. Especially because it is already installed on the vehicles.
Either the jamming or dazzling of laser beam riders does not work after all or the exact capabilities are not revealed publicly, which makes perfect sense because, according to one source, it should be possible to jam IR-guided missiles with the new jammer, which makes sense because it is virtually DIRCM.
Either way, I would not expect further tests to clarify whether such missiles can be jammed until they have already been purchased and are already being assembled
the article for MUSS 2.0 that i linked 2 times has information regarding the developement of MUSS 2.0 between between that talks of testing the use of laser dazzlers for beam riding missiles wich isnt present yet, idk why its hard to understand what im telling you cuz they themselves say it in their own page, its probably dosent have the laser dazzlers yet due to issues but still its interesting to know that at one point it may have functional laser dazzlers against beam riding missiles
And I’m telling you, your article is two years old and says “exploring”, so it was still unclear whether this type of missile could be dazzled at all.
But it’s now 2024 and laser-based IR jamming indicates that the new jammer already has the ability to dazzle. It sounds a lot like DIRCM and that can dazzle IR seeker heads. So the dazzler is already installed and there is nothing about the dazzling of laser beam riding missiles on the Hensoldt website or in the other current articles. This suggests to me that either they have failed to implement this capability or that they are not mentioning it publicly for reasons of secrecy.
But nothing in the current articles suggests that anything still needs to be tested. Because as I said, it is already being scaffolded into the existing S1 fleet and the newly built ones get it right from the start. You won’t decide on something like that if you still have to test something.
Maybe cuz the láser dazzling against Beam riding missiles it’s still being tested??? I already told You before the láser based IR Jamming was a thing since the MUSS
No, before that it was just IR jamming.
Laser based IR jamming is new ferature and the dazzling function is also included because the IR beam can now be focussed in such a way that the seeker heads of missiles can be dazzled.
You always talk about the fact that this is only now being tested, although the only source that it is being tested is 2 years old.
And what company would install a product in a tank without first knowing what capabilities it has?
They only test how well everything works in the end, but certainly not whether something works
Mb them, probably they are still testing if the laser can be adjusted to affect beam riding missiles altough it could be cool to see what else can it affect
I was searching more of this, it’s possible that the láser dazzler actually works in the frequency of beam riding missiles, taking in count the laser beam can work in numerous frequencies it’s highly possible laser guided munitions could be affected too if the laser countermeasure reached 0.4 micrometers and above altough we are still yet to know the range of the láser beam on the MUSS 2.0
Ok, that sounds interesting. Do you have the source of the article or the online forum where you found it?
As I said, I’ve been interested in the system since it was commissioned in 2020 and I’ve been looking for sources on the subject, especially since the presentation at Eurosatory a few weeks ago.
And yes, even if I may have seemed a little sceptical because I wanted to illustrate how little concrete information there is about what the system can do, I also believe that it can do much more than SACLOS wire-guided missiles without IRCCM.
For one thing, in my oppinion Hensoldt wouldn’t bother implementing threat discrimination otherwise. After all, why does the system need to know whether it is a SAL or a laser beam riding missile if both can only be countered by smoke? If you coud only do, what the WarThunder implementation suggests you would only need to know whether it is wire guided or not.
In the meantime, I have also found out something new, even if the source is a German-speaking military Twitter account, where I don’t have concrete Information about what kind of expertise he has, but he has the abbreviation “Gren” in his name, which stands for Panzergrenadier, which are the units that are deployed on the PUMA ifv and he hinted that even MUSS 1.0 is able to jam laser beam rider, provided the system recognises the danger and has the correct frequency in the database to overlay the guide beam. That would fit quite well with the one source I linked to, which also mentioned that MUSS (1.0) is already capable of jamming SAL and laser beam rider.
And then that would also fit with the German source that says that the new feature of MUSS 2.0 is also to blind IR guided missiles. Because the other capabilities were already there.
But of course you have to take the Twitter source with a pinch of salt even more than the others that don’t come directly from Hensoldt.
If we now take your information, then the use of IR lasers, in addition to the possibility of blinding an IR viewfinder head, perhaps offers better modulation of the frequency to achieve this 0.4e-6m.
Unfortunately the Twitter conversation is in German, but if you still want it, I can send you the screenshots and translate them or just the link to the post.
All the other sources are already mentoined in other posts.
During My search i saw videos and other stuff from hendsolt claiming the MUSS to have 0.75 micrometers up to 4 micrometers so if the new MUSS 2.0 it’s supossed to have more range in the micrometers it allows to use and uses a láser based Jamming shouldn’t it be bale to affect certain fire and forget missiles and beam riding? But i don’t have sources on MUSS 2.0 range so that’s why i was asking if You have anything
i do seem to have some conflict of information but that’s basically what i could get based on the threats it can counter and the DIRCM technology together with some studies on milimetric radar technology