Let’s hope that’s really true this time.
Unfortunately, with standard atgms it will most likely still only be wire-guided atgms without IRCCM, although the source I found explicitly states that MUSS 1.0 is effective against optically tracked wire-guided, jam resistant 2nd and 3rd generation (those guided by IR seeker) missiles. So also TOW 2A and 2B.
I also wonder whether laser beam riding missiles count as standard atgms or laser guided.
laser beam riding means its laser guided
Yes, but I can still hope that they only mean SAL with laser guided :/
afaik MUSS 2.0 cant counter beam riding altough hendsolt has been working on making it counter beam riding i havent seen yet any sign of it countering beam riding missiles
calling it, MUSS 3.0 will fire targeted EMP blasts to fry the electronic components of incoming missiles/warheads
Is MUSS 2.0 much smaller or is it just the camera angle in the pictures above?
Compared to previous MUSS 1.0 we have in-game (picture), its a lot smaller.
it is not only much smaller it is stupidly smaller the lower module on the base is not even a fully needed thing is just an addition
well it is less than half the height of the normal module + it allows the instalation of the sound sensor module
Spoiler
could it be a modification for the puma we get aswell?
possibly in the future, if you want an insight of the new stuff being added to the MUSS 2.0 check here Upgrade für das Schutzsystem MUSS 2.0
MUSS - Multifunctional Self-Protection for Vehicles | HENSOLDT
imma call up the german army and see if i can connect you to their engineer department
I also don’t assume that there will be any more precise information than there is now in the next few years or decades.
This kind of information is of course secret (as long as nobody leaks it, you never know with this community).
Everything I could find in German and English is either already in the initial post or in the two posts I shared relatively early in this thread.
In these you can only find the explicit statements that MUSS 2.0 can work against IR guided atgms, that MUSS 1.0 can already jam SAL atgms, SACLOS atgms and rangefinders and that in the development of MUSS 2.0 by Hensoldt the possibility to dazzle beam riding missiles was mentioned.
I haven’t found anything else, except there is in an article by Janes, but it’s behind a paywall, so I can’t say what it says.
Every other source out there I habe found uses the rerm “atgms” when it comes to the capabiliyts of the new laser based jammer, without going into any deatil.
Now of course you can think about how logical or ulogical these options are, but at least I am far from being an expert in this field.
I can only summarise the following from the sources I can find and my own knowledge.
The ability to disrupt IR-guided atgms with MUSS 2.0 sounds the most plausible to me. After all, IR lasers are already used in the DIRCM of aeroplanes to jam IR-guided missiles.
As far as jamming SAL atgms and range finders is concerned, I have no idea how that would work with the jammer. I personally think the author of the source confused the effects if the jammer and the effects of the smoke launcher.
And as far as laser beam riding atgms are concerned, you could either superimpose the laser, which is difficult because the sensor is located on the missile at the rear.
Alternatively, you could dazzle the optics of the targeting device so that the shooter can no longer aim correctly, or even destroy them completely, although I don’t know how much this would affect the accuracy, because it’s not clear to me whether the laser would then remain correctly on the target. Especially if the system is fast enough, you can even dazzle it before the atgm has even been fired, because the laser is activated a short time before the shot.
yeah this is exactly what i was thinking, it is totally plausible they might be already included capacity to counter these missiles but is not fully disclosed if wether it has been put into it or not since they dont specificate
@_KR_Paul Gotta explain sth to you, since you seem to spread this mistake everywhere.
Puma S1 = Puma VJTF , those are the same Puma Variant, the VJTF is just the name of the company it is stationed at.
The Puma S1 does not have the MUSS 2.0 You yourself shared a picture of the MUSS 2.0 device
You will find no active in service Puma with the MUSS 2.0 device since it is still in development.
The only Puma equipped with the MUSS 2.0 is this Prototype, which was shown of this year in the Eurosatory 2024, the Puma S1 is already a good bit older.
There is no specific name yet for this Puma variant that is why OP decided to name it Puma S1 (2024) variant. But depending on it, it might be more accurate to already call it Puma S2.
If you should disagree with my statements , i invite you to show me any picture of a Puma with Muss 2.0 which isnt from the Eurosatory.
And please dont confuse the training devices with the Muss 2.0
I will rename it once there is an official designation for it.
oh didnt want to call you out, just explain the choice of your naming. For all that matter Puma S2 is as wrong as Puma S1 (2024) right now. The most accurate would be Puma Eurosatory 2024 Demonstrator, leaving the S completly out of it. Since until S2 still a lot could change as well
You’re partly right, but so am I.
First of all, no, the Puma S1 is not the same as the Puma VJTF. Regardless of whether it concerns the Puma upgraded from S0 to S1 or the 50 newly built ones.
All Puma on S1 have at least newer versions of board radio, radio and GPS system.
The 50 newly procured Puma S1s will come from the factory with MUSS 2.0 and new engines, but these will be depreciation-compatible so that the first 350 Puma can possibly be retrofitted with them later. They may also have new seats to accommodate soldiers who are taller than 1.84 metres, but this has yet to be approved by the procurement authority. All in all, by the way, this is exactly the status shown at Eurosatory 2024 and corresponds to the S1 status of the 50 newly procured vehicles.
But the 297 Puma S0s that will be upgraded to the Puma S1 version will not initially receive MUSS 2.0. Instead, they will gradually receive it after the retrofit, with worn systems being replaced first. The TSWA will also only be procured as soon as it is ready for series production. But both the VJTF and the S1 Puma already have a mounting point where they can simply be screwed on.
So the confusion comes from the fact that the newly ordered Puma S1 have the same configuration name, but not the same configuration at the beginning. This only changes gradually over time when MUSS 2.0 is retrofitted onto the “old” Puma S1.
But despite these differences, both are the S1 configuration and the fact that the first 297 S1 Puma MUSS 2.0 (and the TSWA) are also gradually being fitted with scaffolding emphasises once again that the Eurosatory variant is the final form of S1.
S2, which you mentioned, will probably contain the following improvements, at least according to PSM representatives.
- Drone defence kit
- Integration of a reconnaissance drone
- Acoustic detection systems like the one I mentioned in my earlier post
- Integration of Spike LR2 as an upgrade to Spike LR1 → larger launcher required
- Integration of sensor and possibly AI-supported assistance systems
Images
Spoiler
Drone defence kit and maybe the new launche, although in the articel where this is from, they say it is a launcher that was specially developed for the Boxer RCT30.
Puma with Agdus, because you asked for it ;)
Sources
Spoiler
Schützenpanzer Puma: Sachstand und weitere Planung (soldat-und-technik.de)
Nachrüstung des Puma-Schützenpanzers (esut.de)
PSM zeigt luftverlegbaren Schützenpanzer Puma S1 und weiteres Entwicklungspotenzial
Gefechtssimulation – AGDUS für Schützenpanzer Puma
https://www.hartpunkt.de/radschuetzenpanzer-bundeswehr-will-maschinenkanonenboxer-mit-puma-turm-beschaffen/
Most important quotes from the source that is sadly behind a paywall
Spoiler
The most important quotes translated:
In May 2023, PSM was commissioned with the production and delivery of an initial 50 Puma in the S1 design version
The vehicles in the second batch will have largely the same technical standard as those upgraded to S1. However, due to obsolescence rationalisation and advanced technologies, two key components will be completely renewed: the engine and the multifunctional self-protection system (MUSS)