The ORC read “Ein Einbau" into “in Winbau"
Thanks for sharing the document! Just a small clarification based on the German text [as a native speaker]: the line “Ein Einbau- und Schießversuch” is singular, which means that only one prototype vehicle was fully converted and test-fired at the time of this report. The following line, “Die restlichen Geschütze befinden sich auf dem Wege nach Libau”, refers only to the 8.8 cm Flak guns being sent to the workshop, not to multiple vehicles already converted.
So, the document confirms one completed prototype and that further conversions were planned once the guns arrived. It does not specify which chassis, wether T-34 or SU to be used for the prototype. Multiple converted tanks are not directly confirmed here, so any claim beyond one tested vehicle is speculative
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Here is a better translation of the full document;
Draft
Secret
31 March 1945
Commanding Officer, Army Group Courland Harko 315
Subject: 8.8 cm Flak Windau
Reference: FS Army Group Courland roem. Ia/Stoart No. 381/45 secret, dated 30 March 1945
The army had 8 captured tanks (T-34s and Russian assault guns) at its disposal, which were to be prepared for deployment.
The only caliber for which sufficient ammunition was available was the 8.5/8.8 cm Flak (r) of Infantry-employed Army Artillery Battalion 910.
The Commander-in-Chief, Colonel General von Vietinghoff, after a briefing by the anti-tank staff officer (Stopak), ordered that the installation be carried out as quickly as possible.
Subsequently, the army carried out an installation and firing trial at Tank Workshop Company 925 in Libau, which was successfully completed.
The remaining guns are on their way to Libau.
Distribution:
AOK 16, Ia/Id
Ia/Stopak
AOK 16, Ia/Id, Ia/Stopak, Ia/Art.
No. 807/45 secret
Signed: von Gersdorff, Colonel of the General Staff
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+1
That might be true, but together with the photographic evidence and the documents regarding army inventory listing a T34-88, it does, in fact, proof 100% that the T34-88 existed. Even if it was only a singular machine.
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Yeah, I’d say the T-34-88 is basically confirmed. The SU-88 is still a bit murky though, since we don’t have solid documents proving it yet. I personally think the prototype discussed in the document is the T-34-88, even if it isn’t explicitly mentioned.
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I actually believe there is already enough evidence to say that if you find a picture or video of a German captured 85 mm gun armed Soviet AFV with a weird-looking gun inside the Kurland Pocket after 31/03/1945, that is a German-modified Soviet AFV with an 85/88 Flak gun.
Even though the document cannot prove that SU-85-88 or T-34-88 100% real, it provides very strong historical context suggesting they could be real.
Here is a counterexample: the Army Group Courland Logistics Document on 8/5/1945 indicated that they had quite a surplus amount of 76.2 mm Pak 36 (r) ammunition, but no T-34/76 ammunition. After reading that, I used to hypothesize that T-34-76 Pak 36 (r) could be real, as the conversion would be easier than replacing an 85 mm gun with an 85/88 mm gun on paper. The discovery of this document immediately crushed that hypothesis.
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There are 107 messages so far, and it’s really confusing by now. Could someone tell me, what can I use as a reference to model the muzzle brake? Though so far with help from Tank Encyclopedia guys, this is kinda how it looks I think. Not certain about the length of the gun though and where exactly to put the wider part. Images are of too bad quality
The muzzle brake shown here should be in scale and similar to the original 85mm one.
The outer layer of the 85/88 mm gun should be the same as the original 85mm gun.
The side view image was distorted, don’t use it as exect measurement.
Fasssssttt Tiger.
Also who are the 6% that voted No?
- “this game has too much grind already”
- “russians/wehraboos must not get that tank by any chance”
- ???
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The non-believers. Filthy filthy non-believers.
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Whenever there is a chance for a new vehicle to be added.
Non-believers “NoO0OooO it’ll be unbalanced!”
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TRUE bro
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My good man the USSR tree is already bloated with option I sometimes feel like I’m fighting spam when going against them. Also I kind of agree with what someone said some time ago that there doesn’t need to be vehicles in every gap you can put them in because of research bloat, but also it’s fine if some nations lack in an area some are better in.
Though my opinion on it is kind of indifferent. It is what it is and maybe it’s even fine in the TT, but the T-34-88, a German modification, doesn’t need to be in the USSR tree. They also retrofitted it back into a T-34-85.
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Correction;
926, not 925th
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Find a new image of the SU-88's gun from Padomju Latvija Nr. 5/6 through the AFVs' position. The Germans just cut the original cannon and shoved the new gun tube in.
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History channel at night image right there 😎
i voted yes even if i don’t want it because it never existed
It most definitely exists due to the plethora of new information about this vehicle and similar modifications
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