so yeah i use the harrier Gr7 to flank around and scud them with agms just fine, hell i do it with dumb bombs on the gripen as well. theyre really not that difficult to take out at all.
the tornado is a lost cause in air and ground as its either missing half its shit, or is completely modeled wrong, that isnt the fault of tha pantsir and is an issue for another topic.
the HARM is an antiradiation missile so its not gonna be much use at all. bar against smashing spaa from absolute miles away.
Using Mavs or GBUs isn’t SEAD. It’s DEAD. When an ARM is in the air the Pantsir would need to turn of its radar and move to a different location or shoot down the missile giving friendly planes time to attack, sure it also has to shoot down mavs but with the mavs you first have to see the pantsir visually while with an ARM you fire it either in the rough direction or use its search function. One might also consider the addition of the TALD but idk how useful it would be considering the small ranges on a WT map
You mean HARM?
If you canr see a pantsir then thats a skill issue man.
Things a massive truck.
Not like spotting an ozelot, to boot. Even with HARMs i bet you still fly in a straight line to fire it back at the pantsirs radar, which btw it does not need…
So it or another spaa, or cap will take you out.
Situational awereness is the issue 90 percent of the time. Not the vehicles themselves.
For example i die more to ITOs than to pantsirs, does that mean they need to go up in br ? Or be nerfed ?. No.
The pantsir may have a higher range but the principle is the same as any other spaa at top tier.
You should already be expecting it to lock and launch, pre emptively moving before hand.
So just like how Pantsir does now?
Also… Again… This is Gaijin we are talking about, if it has better IRCCM than an Aim-9M/R-73 I would be greatly surprised. It will probably be easily flareable.
AMRAAM are really easily defeated with proper chaff usage and ulike the Pantsir, you would actually get RWR warnings and so know you are being fired at, which is a luxuary you do not get when fighting the Pantsir 99% of the time.
Soviets can spawn an effective top tier SPAA with 16km range for 70 SP. This can easily counter the Tornado Gr1, and is extremely hard to deal with in the Harrier Gr7. Gripen does have an easier time, but is limited on payload, especially if I run any sort of multirole. The ADATS on a good day might get a kill out to 8km. If i want to counter something like the SU-25SM3, my only option is to spawn CAP. Something like the Sea Harrier FA2 which costs well over 600 SP. That is not exactly fair.
I can counter any top tier SAM in the Tornado Gr1 with ease except the Pantsir where I rarely can spawn in safely, let alone actually employ any weapons. My best game in the Tornado Gr1 at top tier involved managing to fire off 9x PGM-2000s vs a Pantsir, not a single one hit however because they were all shot down long ebfore they hit the target.
Again… Would have at best, the same range as a Pantsir, likely with a weaker radar or even IRST only. Aim-9Ls have a fraction of the flare resistance they had IRL. Aim-9Ms have a fraction of the flare resistance they had IRL. The likelyhood ASRAAM, especially launched at 14km, would be any more resistant than an Aim-9M fired at the same range, is unlikely. This is Gaijin, It is war Thunder. It will be nerfed through the floor.
No i mean ARM. AntiRadiationMissiles, the AGM-88 HARM is just one of many out there.
Well I dont do CAS in game so i’ve yet to need to find a Pantsir.
But I play the Pantsir and I mostly die to tanks since its piss easy to shot down bombs and missiles in it
Adding ARMs would actually be a challenge for once
ARM is technically the correct acronym.
the AGM-88 uses “HARM” because the H stands for High-speed.
But most I believe call them more typically ARM “Anti-Radiation-Missile”
Reading all of what you said, the tornado is a flying shit bus that the gripen is superior in everh way for ground attack in warthunder due to thr game design, with or without pantsir.
2 the harrier is a fantastic spaa demolisher, however you saying you cannot spawn in safely due to pantsir is telling me that you spawn in and dont dive away from the combat zone, it may have a launch range of 16km bit it will mot land that, unless you fly in a straight line.
And yeah one amraam is easy to defeat, but if youve got a missile system with 8 of them, it aint gonna launch just one. Same issue in air with the amount of them that are shat out.
3 , ive not seen any official documentation that the 9L or 9M are incorrect for how the IRCCM works, the 9L irl is only flare resistant and the 9m is truly IRCCM which in game, it works a dream most the time.
4, asraam spaa would be absolutely ridiculous. And again you didnt address the issue most arent single vehicle platforms (mostly referring to amraam ones here but asraam too.)
I thought he specifically meant the agm88 mb
Pantsirs are genuinely like anyother spaa, dont fly brain dead and its easy enough to take out.
Now if youll excuse me, im trying to make a bug report for the chieftain mk5 and subsequent newer models to habe access to the l15A5 tungest alloy APDS round over the cobalt copper L15A3
I dont think so. I have the Tor and the Pantsir. I would take the Pantsir over the Tor any time since its much easier to do Anti Air in it. Better missiles, more missiles, better radar, 30mm guns and it can actually shoot air targets that are closer than 2km. I have friends who have the FlaRakRad, they essentially become obsolete when I spawn it in since its better in any way
I have been killed by a Pantsir in a Harrier Gr7, whilst spamming CMs and diving towards the ground as fast as I could after spawning in. I’ve also been killed many times when I do make it to the ground cover and then try and pop up to fire off an AGM-65, usually before ive managed to locate in the Pantsir in the Crap Gen 1 Thermals (which should be Gen 2 and could be replaced with a Gen 3 pod)
But more often than not, I just dont play top tier anymore because fighting 2A7Vs, 122s and BVMs, let alone everyone elses stuff in the Challenger 2 just sucks, so I dont get a huge amount of practice. I would probably more, if stuff like the Apache was competitve, but 7km range Hellfires just cant do anything at top tier these days.
RAFs docs for Aim-9L vs Jaguar dropping Large calibre flares:
TLDR. If the target is on re-heat and the Aim-9L is fired in rear-aspect, it doesnt matter how many LCMs you drop, it will hit you every time. In other aspects, flares have a chance at helping you, but more likely than not the Aim-9L would have a higher chance to hit you. Dropping out of reheat increases survival rate greatly.
In-game I’ve had many Aim-9Ls defeated with 1 standard calibre flare dropped by a target sat on full reheat and taking no measures to defend themselves.
Aim-9Ms, there is a passage from a Book(so secondary source) i’ve read where the author, a former Sea Harrier FA2/Harrier Gr9 pilot, was doing a live fire exercise with an Aim-9M firing at a flare pack towed by a Jindivik target drone and all the issues they had and have had in the past to get the Aim-9M to actually go for the flare pack and would quite often recognise the flares and go for the cold target drone instead (such a major issue in fact that off-boresight shots with Aim-9M were actually banned)
You also have bug reports like this:
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/3jdZd8ZGSdlK
If I’d hazard a guess. Aim-9M has the same resistance to flares that Aim-9L had IRL.
(though this would likely be fixed not by buffing Aim-9L/Aim-9M flare resistance but by modeling heat signatures accurately. things like Harriers are almost impossible to flare off basic missile, despite the fact they could defeat quite a few rear aspect missile without the use of any flares and only via the use of the VIFF. Then you have things like the F-5 which can barely be locked onto with All-aspect seekers whilst sat on reheat)
Supacat HVM would likely have a max of 2 ASRAAM ready to fire at any one time. So far fewer than anyone else. Short of something like the Sky Sabre, What could be added for top tier SPAA over the ADATS that actually has range even close to the Pantsir. ADATS has a max range vs aircraft of maybe 8km, most just take the Stormer HVM at top tier because it can scout at the same time an d has twice the missile but has the same range usually.
To return to the origianl topic though, Pantsir being the same BR as the ADATS is an insult. Either ADATS needs to go down, or with the max BR increasing, the Pantsir should go up.
Nice man didnt know that about tbe 9L.
Though in game rn it is pretty solid from the rear aspect for an afterburner.
And the missile systems again, so if theres 3 with amraam a side, itll be chaos.
And yeah i feel that about top tiers, im fown in 8.7 playing rhe chieftains, t62s.
9.3s with a lineup for every nation now,
Love the challanger 2s but they’re the worst to use at top tier… never even mind the brain rot teams
Also i rarely get hit by a pantsir doing that, bar in the f4J what catches me is some vt1 slinging pellet when im circiling back around
I just dont see what alternatives there are. Yes SLAMRAAM spam would be annoying, but no more annoying than trying to fight Su-25SM3s in the ADATS.
And perhaps it would enable more advanced CAS to be added like Brimstones, ARM, etc etc.
It is an arms race for sure, but we’ve stalled out (both for SPAA and CAS)
Short doing nothing at all and leaving the US and Britain with 7-8km range SAMs (let alone everyone else like Italy with their SPAAG or Israel with nothing at all) there is really only 2 options, these strong, yet shorter range options such as the Supacat HVM or HUMVEE with their respective weapons or things like Sky Sabre or Patriot with extremely high range with some sort of external radar set-up.
The only other option is to make CAP a LOT cheaper, maybe as lower as 200 SP. (maybe slightly higher with ARH) but still. As it stands. I just dont consider Britain (and by extension the US) to have any top tier SAMs and most other nations, bar the Soviets and to a slightly lesser degree, China, to have anything even close to effective top tier SPAA.
10.3 is the max I usually play with Britain these days. Good MBTs, Good SPAA, Good CAS.
Just wish things like the Apache were to be honest, playable, one of the main reasons I worked to get to top tier ground at all, was because I wanted somewhere to play that, that was actually fun.
you realise if we keep pushing for more modern equipment, aka SLAMRAAMS, brimsones, arm etc.
the game as you put it can only go one way. its stalled out? not really cas id say nato nations are further a head than the eastern ones bar the su25, su24 and JH7A now.
rather than grabbing for newer, and newer, and newer shit, why dont we all advocate for stuff in game to become more balanced. the pantsir as it stands can be out classed by a semi competant pilot. the issue is the map, and mission designs are still for fking ww2 tanks, if we had modern objectives, for modern equipment then it would be half the battle. E.G look at ARB its just AAB+ where as sim is more like what ARB should be but with 3rd person for example. same as the tanks.
but now, GRB is so poluted with the zoomer mentality we arent getting bigger maps, or more spread out objectives its all just one big cluster fk in, that goes for SPAA and CAS/CAP too, spawning in a jet that goes mach jesus, 15km from the match is really not much time for positioning, where as the SPAA which will be sat in spawn is likely to get trampled by a spawn rushing tank.
the the adats at top tier is far superior than anything another minor nation has.
the issue is with cap going lower is can still demolish ground units with basic belts.
does it need re worked? yes, the whole damn game does. from AAB, GAB, GRB, ARB, to even sim which is left out most the time, and naval.
also yeah i really like the 10.3 area for britain as well man the challanger 1s, i got all 3 (DS as well) its a phenomenal lineup with the vickers mk7, and khalid as a back up. im actually working on spaa rn got the chieftain marksman and its bloody fun xD
Because my main gamemode is air and having to sit and watch aircraft that are added, added in massively handicapped states for the sake of balancing the ground modes is really annoying. Even more annoying when perfectly suitable aircraft to be added a year ago, are denied because “they would be too OP in ground” arise, like the Tornado Gr4.
How though. How can ADATS be made to be balanced vs any top tier AGM without adding something to replace it and the only options to replace it are things like SLAMRAAMs.
If it wasnt for the fact that the ADATS can in theory take out tanks. Id barely place it higher than 10.7 currently. At least when compared to the Stormer HVM.
Stormer HVM (10.3)
ADATS (11.7)
this is true, but I still dont think it would change the fundemental imbalance between top tier SPAA systems and basic AGMs:
ADATS (UK & US)
Imp, Chaparral (israel)
OTOMATIC (Italy)
Shouldnt be considered top tier SPAA.
FlaRakRad (Germany)
Tor M-1 (China)
It0 (France and Sweden)
are much better but fairly easily defeated.
(I have no experience fighting the Type-81 but Ive heard its kinda bad due to wrong missiles?)
No map change will ever enable something like the ADATS or OTOMATIC to reliably fight AGM-65s, let alone long range missile like PGMs or KH-38s. Heck even something Bus-like like the Tornado dropping GBUs can usually outrange ADATS, I’ve killed many just flying in a staright line after spawning in.
Type-81 is all the negative of top tier SPAA but more
people forget that optical lock range depend on the size of the target. Tiger HUT at 5Km at 3000M will not even get a lock
One of the most satisfying things in game so far for me happened this week.
Was a hovering at (I think) 3km away a few hundred meters up. Shot my M830 round and he wasn’t moving, smacked him dead on. One of the most satisfying shots to date lol. Finally someone sat still long enough and schwacked em.
would be better for all nations to get opportunity to use CAS, and not just whoever has Russia on their team.
The only puzzling and confusing thing to me is that all other MBTs are moved up instead of just the up armored leopards
The 2a5 going to 12.0 is crazy for me. “It’s doing better” then any other nations top tier vehicle? Come on now.