I was speaking on KF51 since you described the older ones as non-functional mock-ups.
& non-functional was removed as precedent when Coellian was removed.
Ah then yea, it would probably require its own BR range tbh assuming Gaijin doesn’t pull a 2A7V 2.0 and implements it in a significantly worse state than it should be in.
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You can play around everything but that doesn’t mean something shouldn’t be stated as a con.
I have and they performed just fine against everything.
T-72B’s issues wouldn’t be solved with 3BM60, 3BM42 is more than enough for 10.0 to be able to pen things easily.
It would still have crappy mobility, gun handling, gun depression, meh reload and no thermals.
105mm vehicles aren’t bad, just play them right bruh.
Also, sniper + having -4 degrees of gun depression don’t go hand in hand buddy.
Reload speed is also a part of firepower.
Something that can shoot twice as fast as you is not to be taken lightly.
You do as well, thus aiming at large weakspots shouldn’t be an issue for you.
It’s not hard to be faster than tanks that have 8.0 mobility lol.
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USSR vehicle eating a shot it shouldn’t be able to = proof of bias
Non-USSR vehicle eating a shot it shouldn’t be able to = heh, unlucky, volumetric moment, nothing to see here, move on people
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You say you didn’t shoot T-90M and BVM side armour around carrousel with minimal effect? Proof of what? Of 80mm of armour eating 800mm rod with minimal damage? You can apply it to every tank in the game. I ve also bounced a lot of shots in vehicles I shouldn’t. I am done with arguing, we will see your opinion after people start getting it. Try to play other nations then across this BR
What’s funny is, that despite the 292 lolpenning the turret face of the M1, since the reload is 10 seconds, you can replace the gunner before it reloads, and you can reliably 1shot the soviets.
The CATTB (not the Thumper, they are different) has a much faster reload (8-12 rpm), much larger ready rack (22-32 rounds, with automatic ready rack replenisher), much, much better armor, thermals, gun depression, .50 cal (likely), a lot of smoke launchers (a wet dream of every germany main), had some kind of radar.
It is superior to anything we have in game.
The Leo with 140mm gun is likely also be similar, just not as advanced, but still much stronger than the 292.
Nono, it is clearly bias xd.
So then, the M19 SPAA bouncing a long 88 with it’s turret ring is proof os US bias?
I’ve had many examples of tanks not spalling, when they would. Also, there are many examples of just random bounces/nonpens.
And don’t even start with the ammo not exploding thing, because that can easily be demonstrated to happen consistantly on non soviet tanks too.
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The only times my T-80BVM and T-90M side armour worked is when NATO mains used their aiming skills to specifically put their shells through 4 plates of ERA and into the thickest parts of the side armour.
When I drive the KVT, 5 shells disappear into my front hull with no possible explanation.
Actually test drive it.
https://wiki.warthunder.com/special:GameObjectView?object_id=ussr_object_292
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The difference between this and the 2A7V / T-80BVM is immense, especially seeing as the armor is treated like a T-80U or T-72B3 with APFSDS.
Go ahead and turn off the buggy calculator, set it to 0m, and fire at the ufp.
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Why are you even bringing this up if bug hits happen to other tanks as well ?
Shooting at weakspots never was an issue for me, so I doubt anything will change with 292.
Also, you forgot to answer me, do M-51 belongs at 7.7, since it fits in your logic perfectly ?
You talk about a tank with a tall, slow and paper platform that plays around APHE slingers all around and can be OHK by Panther, on exchange it has HEAT that does puncture damage to even WW2 tank. But then you refuse to acknowledge a problem with 292 being better armoured than T-80B with the best dart on the game on .3 BR lower only because it has 2.9 sec longer reload and lack of 1st gen thermals? What are you all smoking? We talk about BR where everybody is slinging darts. Talk about weakspots is huge. Then give every tank first shells of an gun, DM13 to Rh120, BM-9 to 125mm, and APDS to L7 105mm because every of those shells will penetrate any weakspot on 11.7 tanks anyway. It’s not about shooting weakspots, it’s about doing it reliably and things that comes with it, like misplaced shot by a little. L7 would bounce, and LP83 wouldn’t in such case.
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7.7 tanks have APDS and HEAT as their main shell.
Any vehicle in the game can be OHK’d ?
Your APHE damage means nothing if you can’t reliably penetrate the target. Remember, you’re using this logic on 292 so it should apply to M-51 as well.
Lack of smokes and having an exposed turret ammo storage as well.
Yeah, those things will bring down 292 significantly.
Meanwhile, 80B only has a weaker dart as it’s downside, and considering 3BM42 is already strong at that BR I think having better shell but ~3s longer reload would actually hurt the vehicle more on average.
They are huge considering you’re using guns that have amazing accuracy, optics and LRFs.
Those would be much better than stock HEAT, where do I vote for this change ?
Having a great round is nice and all, but that tank is trading so many things for it, so having a single pro with half a dozen of cons is a clear sign that BR placement isn’t particularly fair.
That thing looks like a T-72M2/M60 AMBT equivalent so putting it above 10.3 wouldn’t be great.
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There are tons of vehicles that are like this. Trading everything for high damage and/or pen.
There is a great reason why are things, like Ikv 103, Sturer Emil, Pvkv IV at such a low BR.
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You survive when you’re hit in the KVT? With my luck, they pen my bustle rack from the front with 3BM15 and instantly kill me
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If Abrams, and any 9.0/9.3 105 user with basic L7 darts can overcome fact to shoot T tanks in a weakspot, 292 driver can overcome lack of thermals and longer reload Vs tanks that have shorter reload and basic thermals
If I remember correctly M-51 has 6.0 battle rating, and if you mean the same gun at 7.7, it’s another platform to begin with
APHE plays around BR when everything can be penetrated via cupola or shot trap. I am not talking about BR when tanks slings at their weakspots, have armour that can bounce some 3BM-42 and vice versa. And then you slap T-80B with railgun that can shit on most 11.7 frontally at 10.0 completely nullifying term of “armour” and " surviving misplaced shot"
Smoke is not that crucial, many tank have poor armour around ammo rack and it’s not a drawback. BT-5 can ammo rack Leopard 2 as well
Still it’s has good optics, laser rangefinder and best dart to work eith
You can penetrate any weakspot with HEAT-fs, how reliably is that ? You don’t need to answer
Still you came with slow tanks without armour, Moderna is still T-72 and M60 talk for itself. When 292 is still well armoured all around, and definitely has speed to be almost on par with T-80B
Now imagine your KVT vs army of 292 slinging dart that completely ignores your armour, can shot centrer mass and cripple your tank, same goes with 2A4
in my humble opinion
10.3 or 10.7 would be good
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all around ? only the front is "well armored " .
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shooting at the turret roof can also detonate the amorrack and that can be penetrated by a lot of guns
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Of course, that’s why it’s at 10.0 and not 11.0.
Everyone has to overcome some disadvantages if you want a balanced BR range.
M-51 can lolpen stuff at 7.7, so using your logic it should go up there.
Cupola shot is far from easy and reliable way to kill something.
292 can lolpen 11.0 stuff and 11.0 stuff can lolpen it back.
But, 292 has several cons when compared to 11.0s which certainly will pull it’s BR down.
Lacking smoke grenades is a clear downside that should be taken into consideration.
It’s not about penetration chances, it’s about damage after pen. Darts you mentioned will shit on HEAT post-pen wise.
They have good thermals and rounds that can easily lolpen vast majority of tanks at their BR.
KE-W at 10.0 is absolutely brutal and it comes with a 7.1s reload. I would say M60 AMBT has much better firepower than 292 at their BR.
Also, Moderna’s UFP will still eat 120mm DM23, just like 80B would.
So it’s basically trading mobility for quality thermals, 2.9s better reload and a weaker shell that’s still more than enough to shit on 10.0 tanks.
3BM42 can already shred KVT so nothing will change from both sides.
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292 can shoot Abrams and Leopard thought right cheek and detonate ammo too, 0 points for you