Win rates - The same for all players within the match* Skill - Thunderskill takes into account how “skilled” a player is based on their stats, and iirc they had data showing the number of players in each general skill level
Nothing here has anything to do with what was being discussed.
Even with a biased sample (of which it is not that biased, going off of pure sample size), you can adjust for that, and they already keep track of player skill.
Hello? If it is a biased sample it is a biased sample. It doesn’t matter if you have 10, 100, 1000 entries for it. If the sample is inherently biased then the result will be too. This isn’t exactly groundbreaking stuff, this has been widely accepted in regards to thunderskill for a long time now and even the devs have said in the past as to why thunderskill isn’t reliable.
Objectively, these vehicles do not belong at their current BRs. Some are too strong, and others are too weak. Knowing your bias towards Russia, would you say that the B-29’s, Arietes’, or Merkavas’ BRs make sense?
That, is not, what, objective, means. What you are stating here is your OPINION. Your opinion is your subjective feelings. Go read a dictionary.
So you just jump into a random part of the conversation and disregard everything that was before and after expanding on or showing the initial intent? And to you this isn’t taking something out of context?
Alright then. Also dare I say, a fallacy to disregard an entire argument as wrong based on one thing out of context in isolation.
All bombers are overtiered why are you mentioning the B29 specifically there’s no reason to
With the buff they’ve recently received they’re fine where they are also once again you’re commenting on a topic you know nothing about your highest BR is 9.3
Again its fine where it is you cant move it down without ruining the br below it some vehicles just have to be worse until decompression happens
I didn’t address your whole point about Abrams, just evidence you used. Your logic was bad in that, and I addressed it. It’s what you said, in your post, in its entirety. That not out of context.
Nor did I disregard your entire argument, it was never related to or a part of what I addressed.
Whether an Abrams should or should not get better round and stay at its current BR is irrelevant to the point that saying necrons performance is indicative that the tank is good. Necrons performance as good as it is, is an outlier and indicative only of that, his performance.
That is bad logic. I said as much, and that’s all I discussed, it has no bearing on the topic at hand, other than to say it’s a bad basis to prove a point.
I can see this is seriously going nowhere. So this is where it ends… for the 3rd time lol
Your logic was bad in that, and I addressed it. It’s what you said, in your post, in its entirety. That not out of context.
But you didn’t. You took a single part of my argument out of context by your own admission since you never read anything else and you used it as a strawman.
Also why you are refusing to respond to me pointing out the context that was surrounding the part you isolated.
It’s a stat that Thunderskill tracks, so it is being discussed.
If its a biased sample and you know what the “normal” data should be (in this case, the relative number of low, medium, and high skill players [or whatever divisions you want]), you can adjust for that. It’s an important part of the statistical sciences.
All you are doing is defining “objective” to be “whatever Gaijin does,” and not “the obvious performance of the vehicle at its BR compared to the other vehicles at its BR.”
I’m showing why Gaijin’s BR placements isn’t actually based on their objective performance.
Why do I need to be at 12.0 to know the Ariete is the worst top tier tank? Are you saying they deserve their 11.7/12.0 BRs?
If its a biased sample and you know what the “normal” data should be (in this case, the relative number of low, medium, and high skill players [or whatever divisions you want]), you can adjust for that. It’s an important part of the statistical sciences.
So I suppose you’re going to enlighten the entire community on what the “normal” data should be now, yes? You don’t mind proving this for us right? The entire community is awaiting eagerly for you to provide the statistics that people have been wanting to gaijin to make public for years.
All you are doing is defining “objective” to be “whatever Gaijin does,” and not “the obvious performance of the vehicle at its BR compared to the other vehicles at its BR.”
No it is literally the definition. You are voicing your opinion. It is not objective, it is subjective. It is your opinion that those vehicles are not at the right BR. That is all.
You can go off of the skill divisions/distribution in similar videogames, or use the general normal distribution. Both of these avenues are standard within the statistical sciences.
Except Gaijin does not balance by a vehicles objective performance, otherwise the B-29, Arietes’, Merkavas’, etc. would not be at their BRs.
Doesn’t work because bombers are balanced in an entirely seperate way to every other aircraft youd know this if you didnt just start playing yesterday.
Bombers are balanced off bomb load primarily, stats dont matter to gaijin for bomber balance
Because its not the worst toptier tank and you’d know this if you played toptier, yes for the absolute worst players in the game its the worst tank because bad players rely on luck and armour to get by as a safety net because they don’t know how to utlise gun handling, positioning and mobility but for anyone else whos average or good at the game it is certainly not the worst
Yes as much as i don’t like my challenger 2 being 11.7 and 12.0 because its objectively the worst toptier im not going to beg for it to be lowered so i can curbstomp T-72Bs and other inferior tanks
You can go off of the skill divisions/distribution in similar videogames, or use the general normal distribution. Both of these avenues are standard within the statistical sciences.
This isn’t evidence. I asked for you to substantiate your claims. Provide us with the tangible evidence since you have it all figured out and know what the “normal” is. You’re apparently the first given gaijin has not disclosed their stats to anyone else. You’ve beat everyone to it, now just show it. Unless you’re making it up as you go.
Except Gaijin does not balance by a vehicles objective performance, otherwise the B-29, Arietes’, Merkavas’, etc. would not be at their BRs.
I think you’ll find they more or less do given they use their average vehicle performance to balance vehicles. The only times where the changes don’t go through in spite of what the data says is if enough uproar manages to occur to stop it going through even though the data says it should.
That is far more objective than whatever your opinion is. Your opinion is not objective. Doesn’t matter how many times you claim it is, it isn’t. It goes against the literal definition of the word.
I didn’t start playing yesterday, my dude. I have 450 hours on PC and probably the same amount on Xbox before I transferred my account to PC.
Which is a direct example of a vehicle’s performance not matching its BR.
It isn’t lol? That’s the first time anyone’s said that.
Sure, keeping them from fighting 10.3s is balancing off of performance, but forcing the Challenger 2s to be at 11.7/12.0 with much, much better vehicles at their BR isn’t going off of their performance.
Why should I have to do that? If you want me to write out a thesis for you, you should pay me to do so, but me pointing out methods of normalizing data in the statistical sciences is just showing you it is possible to use even a “biased” sample.
If they did that, prop bombers wouldn’t face jets 10/10 matches, or the worst top tier MBTs being the same BRs as the best top tier MBTs.
Why should I have to do that? If you want me to write out a thesis for you, you should pay me to do so, but me pointing out methods of normalizing data in the statistical sciences is just showing you it is possible to use even a “biased” sample.
So you’re just making things up as you go along and don’t actually know what you’re talking about or what the normal is? Yeah okay we all knew that already but glad you admitted it.
If they did that, prop bombers wouldn’t face jets 10/10 matches, or the worst top tier MBTs being the same BRs as the best top tier MBTs.
In your opinion. Also using very top tier MBTs as an example is poor because that is a result of compression and gaijin has acknowledged this before and is slowly working to decompress to fix this.
No, I’m saying that your argument about Thunderskill being invalid is invalid in itself. Let’s review the argument:
Spoiler cause it's long
You - Thunderskill is irrelevant since only Gaijin has the true stats
Me - The sample size is larger than most studies and is most definitely large enough to be statistically significant
You - Thunderskill is unreliable because the sample “only” accounts for people who go out of their way to register with the website, who generally care more about their performance. Meanwhile, Gaijin has all the data.
Me - I mentioned its massive sample size because of this, and refute that Thunderskill shouldn’t be used (especially with its large sample size). I also refute the idea that the balancing on a vehicle’s actual performance is being done effectively by Gaijin (if at all).
You - Sample size doesn’t matter if it is biased to begin with
Me - Thunderskill already takes skill into account, and there are some statistics that are the same regardless of skill. Regardless, you can normalize a “biased sample”
You - You cannot change a biased sample
Me - You can normalize a biased sample
You - So I guess you know what the normal data is, then, so why don’t you prove it?
Me - You can go off of the skill distribution of other videogames, or just use the general normal distribution, which are both common avenues for normalizing data in the statistical sciences
You - That isn’t evidence, prove you know what normal is
Me - I’m not going to write an academic paper for free
You - So you don’t know what you’re talking about?
TL;DR: Me not wanting to write an academic paper for free does not mean there are not statistical methods to normalize data.
And? I obviously didn’t start playing yesterday, and I’ve gotten to 10.7 in Air (US tech tree).
Bombload =/= a vehicle’s entire performance
Cool, but the vast majority of people disagree with you.
Yes you have just summarised that you don’t know what you’re talking about, have done no research and have no evidence to prove anything you said and you do not know what the normal is. The facts stand at:
Thunderskill is widely accepted as not entirely reliable, gaijin themselves have said so in the past too because of biased sampling.
Only gaijin have the unbiased stats.
You have nothing to prove otherwise.
That’s where we are at. The rest of it just you presenting your opinion. Which is fine, until you start trying to claim that it is objective when you’re asking for vehicles to move BR based on your opinion. It is not.
Thunderskill is thought of as unreliable, but there’s no justification for this. Gaijin would of course want to say it is unreliable, because they don’t base their balancing off of a vehicle’s actual performance.
Only gaijin have the unbiased stats.
I’ve already shown that you can normalize data, how you could do that, but I’m not going to write a thesis for you for free.
Thunderskill is thought of as unreliable, but there’s no justification for this.
Did you just forget the entire conversation that took place? There is justification for it, we’ve been over this already.
Gaijin would of course want to say it is unreliable, because they don’t base their balancing off of a vehicle’s actual performance.
Do you have a single shred of evidence for your tinfoil hat theory here?
Only gaijin have the unbiased stats.
Correct.
I’ve already shown that you can normalize data, how you could do that, but I’m not going to write a thesis for you for free.
No you haven’t. You haven’t shown anyone, anything. I asked you to show us all and you went “Uh no, besides I don’t have anything you can’t expect me to actually put what I made up into practice to substantiate my claims? That’s ridiculous!”.
If we were talking about aircraft I’d of mentioned you have 10.7 air, again you cant follow a conversation this is about toptier tanks currently
It quite literally is 90% of what they’re balanced by again bombers are balanced a different way to everything else
You see the difference is i dont care they can have their own opinion on the Ariete because they have toptier and have fought against or played the Ariete, now You on the other hand cant even see the lowest br ariete on your own team so you quite literally cant have an opinion on the subject and any opinion you do try to make is tantamount to drivel
I find it interesting that you once again parse out specific K/D without considering that I skipped T80B because I already owned the T72AV TURMS (then 10.0, now 10.3), and the T-80UD (then 10.0, now 10.3), and thus never played the T80B all that much in the first place.
I’ll put it another way:
You don’t consider that my line-ups are each 8 or 9 crew slots, and the reason the M1’s K/D is that steady rate is because it often comes in as a second or third spawn in a fight, when other heavier MBTs have already been cooked and I have a better understanding of the battlefield and where certain enemies are located.
You don’t consider that how powerful a tank is on its first spawn will directly affect the layout of the battlefield and how useful it is to the player.
If the player is incapable of actually destroying stuff, it’s going to feel like suffering to the player.
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I think you mean I don’t sit and camp a sniping position.
Oh, no, this was simply an ad hominem.
Mobility in top tier matters, sure, I won’t deny that. On the other hand, getting there without getting your guts punched out is another question entirely. You have to make high risk maneuvers or take your time in maneuvering, which eliminates the aforementioned mobility because you have to avoid common lanes of travel so you don’t die.
And again, on long distance maps (which are common at top tier), M774 doesn’t do jacksquat to its 10.7 contemporaries, much less 11.0, 11.3 or 11.7.
I’m still finishing the series, but I guess thanks for the shoutout? Yet again, I haven’t bothered insulting y’all, but you continually seem to want to make passes at me personally.
Maybe you have bothered to look at my Tiktok and seen my computer screen size?
Yes, a 960 can run the game at 60 FPS. I’m not going to play in ULQ because I prefer a little more ‘pretty’ on my screen. If I were to play in ULQ or some such, yes, I probably would be able to pick out enemies very easily and be more aware, but then I try not to abuse mechanics of the game purely out of spite.
They seemingly like to lean on the idea of everyone else being ‘absurd’ about buffs of any nation, other than the nation that’s being talked about.
Gaijin isn’t the determiner of what is ‘happy’ to players.
Decent summary.
And again, if US players are given that small buff, maybe some of the “less brainless” will return to actually play.
As it stands, I’ve received dozens, if not hundreds of comments over the past few months, all people reiterating that they won’t even bother returning to the US tech tree until the turret ring is fixed, much less a small buff to the ammunition.
So Casino and lyn’s postulations are based on an even smaller sample size than they know. Are all these players who patently refuse to play the US ‘brainless’ to them?