gaijin should pay you for this mental damage
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Germany could rearrange the 3 trees on the right and combine 2 of them to make some room for a subtree IMO
While they are excited to get leopards? Dude…
They’ve just mocked me days before when I was saying that no leopards for FR
Except he is a Chinese speaker and even his wife is Chinese, so you can’t be claiming bias-bias-bias. Where are you getting your information from?
The CN community now has drawn a conclusion, the evidence exists, but not sufficient.
Due to the fuel limit, early J10 usually carries fuel tank to extend its battle range. The most photos are taken during AirShow where the plane is exhibited on ground.
So though not really acceptable, it is still reasonable for Gaijin to refuse that issue
I apologize if I guess wrong, but the source part contains no source in Chinese. and from this thread, many source claims it’s a very independent design.
i speak chinese as well. and even a bit of the dialect of Hengyang. i own a house there. my wife is Chinese and my son is going to school there.
the only difference is my source of information is not clouded by Bias and propaganda
the information about the Lavi’s information been sold to china was made public in 1994. the US intelligence (and the CIA) was already aware of that. but in order to not tanish the relation with Israel, they let is slid as long they do not comfirm it publically otherwise they would have to cut some healthy supplies to isreal which they didn’t wanted. the F-16 was not considered as a their best plane anymore so they let it go.
it was further confirmed by the many Russian engineer who worked for Lyulka at the installation of the Salyut AL-31FN engine on the J-10A for china in china. they had access to the plane and his blueprint. their knowledge of the various planes comfirm them it was based on the F-16. they qualified the J-10 as a “melting pot” of foreign part and technology (those are their words)
and finally. this is what the plane was looking like before 1987
and this is after 1987
what changed? the plane was entirely redesign and was redraw from scratch… to look exactly like the Lavi. and the main source who state the plane is not related to the Lavi is Song Wencong the head engineer behind the J-10 development
which is this guy posing in front of the Lavi with some of his best engineers.
and if you think he was there for the missiles only. you do not send the head of an ongoing project for a simple thing as to make a missile compatible. you send 2-3 key engineers responsible for the armament and avionic, not the leader of the team. and it’s the Israeli engineer who went to China to help with the compatibility of the missiles on the Chinese system. it’s not like they would solve the problems when the plane is not there. the plane was not even built yet… they would not have gone to Israel for potential compatibility for missiles. that is a rather minor part of the development which is usually a normal upgrade. the only reason to go to Israel was to see things they couldn’t bring to china. wich was in this case, clearly the Lavi.
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There are also some political factors, Isreal stopped the improvement of Lavi due to (or maybe due to) the pressure from US. And at that time CN was seeking for normalizing the relationship with US. So there isn’t much chance or motivation for CN to acquire the core documents of Lavi from Isreal since this might be contrary to the policy at that time.
The similarity between Lavi and J-10 does exist, but it remains a mystery whether CN received support from Isreal. And CN media denies the saying of derivation.
So… IMO, in dubio pro reo.
those are things that will never be officially confirmed by anyone.
if Israel confirmed it, they would have admitted to having broken the non-disclosure agreement which means they need to have the consequence
if USA confirms it, they will have to give consequences and this means a military-industrial sanction which USA wants to avoid with Israel. Since Israel is essential for the military high technology, and semi-conductor. and also they are good customers.
If China confirms it, they will lose the patriotic pride of this plane that was costly to develop. and losing it might end up going with even more Russian design.
so everyone loses by telling the hypothetical truth and everyone wins by hypothetically lying. at the end. the F-16 was not the best fighter anymore by the time it was discovered. and most of the critical technology, china was unable to copy it so they replaced it with whatever they had that could do. In the end, the impact of this was low.
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True, so my opinion is to skip that issue since you just can’t expect to see any official announcements, not for now.
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that is a wise decision, this is also what I decided to follow.
at the end. it removes nothing from the quality of the planes and whatever we think about it, it will change nothing about what it is.
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What did I miss?
I guess there still no Canada so I can return in the dark corner of the room >~<
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Then I apologise again, but still have some problem.
- there was a lower intake design same time as side intake.
- that time, many developers including the chief engineers go abroad to learn the advandaced research and producing tech, which are also can’t bring back directly.
- there are misunderstandings in “independent design”. Like Lavi, built under American’s help, and mixed with many F-16’s design, but I will call it still a independent design. It should be more like Chinese developers learned from Lavi’s design, and used the knowlodge in J-10’s design.
- sorry again about my ptsd in “J-10 is a copy of Lavi”. it’s mainly about the copy word. but this is still a severe accusation to me and the author of my source, as I always try to be one of the most fair-minded guy here after seeing too much bias and rumor.
You know… to deny such rich history of the Chinese aircraft of J-10… to deny the truth of one of China’s most unique jets…
For what reason?
What reason to deny the J-10’s inspirations/origins?
To insult China’s history?
No one here claimed J-10 is a copy of any aircraft.
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the placement of the intake is not the only thing that is off. and this design is also very far from the final design and very basic. I could well be anything… it has no details, no feature,. it’s just a simple shape placed together without refinement.
sealing a deal, learning how to do with the Israeli material as a demonstrator. probably even assist to a test flight. coming back with the documents and the knowledge.
the Lavi has still belonged to Israel and while not allowed to export it without American permission, the Americans had little control over who could see it and have access to it. The Leopard 2 are under the regard of KMW for export as well, but they aren’t guarding each leopard 2 of each country either. that is why they are signing an agreement when they sell it. the F-16 and the Lavi had similar agreements regarding export and production. that is called a license usually. it’s common in the military industry.
a piece of advice in history, never take anything personally. some things are out of your or my control. if you take it too personally, you will end up being either disappointed, discredited, or covering up the truth for your view.
just start with the base that every piece of information you know might be wrong and review every fact for the reliability and the quality of their proof.
in military history, never 2 different countries with completely different access to technology, completely different heritage, doctrine, and industries end up with extremely similar vehicles. unless one was copied on the other.
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plenty enough, that’s how I get my PTSD
simply bias? idk
it’s common seeing someone saying “chinese copy things”, just like saying Russian
/USSR things are all “cheap and crudely made ork stuff”
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But you should know that the wing and duckwing layouts of J10 and Lavi are completely different. All prototypes of J10A did not jump out of the delta wing design, while Lavi has a swept wing design, and each type of aerodynamics requires a large amount of wind tunnel experimental data. Lavi’s wing aerodynamic data design is not helpful for the design of J10
And the fact that the designer visited Lavi does not prove that he plagiarized Lavi. Their designs are completely different, and how do you introduce how the Israelis attempted to revive the Lavi project by changing the Lavi aerodynamic layout and engine to the same J10 model after the J10 aerodynamic data was leaked in 1999
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the wings need to be reviewed with the size of the planes and the quality you want to give it at different altitudes, play load, and also depend on the power of the engine. the wings are a rather minor aspect of a plane that can easily be changed with the different variants of the planes. the Taiwanese license-built F-16 also has different wings. so is the Japanese one. that does not make them less based on the F-16
it’s not the fact they visited Israel, it’s the fact they studied a plane that they were not supposed to have access to and the fact that their design drastically changed, the Project took a huge leap forward and was not more stalling at the edge of cancellation to be nearly ready for a prototype which needed to use compartment that China was not yet capable to produce even in the smallest quantity. even less designing it with their technology of 1987. it took them 10 years to have a working prototype and that was only because Russia helped them to mount an interim engine. it took them 25 years (2011) to get the engine they designed for the plane ready… and it was not yet ready for production. it was only in 2018 it was ready for mass production. 30 years after the design of the engine
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Now, if only they could fix it being massively under-BR’d