New battleships in a nutshell

Possibly worth comparing to historical:

Ship Range TMD 8 gun group
North Carolina 20000 0.383 295
Iowa 20000 0.429 330
Yamato 20000 0.44 339
Bismarck 20000 0.458 353
Hood 20000 0.544 419
Colorado 20000 0.55 424
King George V 20000 0.566 436
Rodney 20000 0.57 439
Richelieu (postwar) 20000 0.71 547
Littorio 20000 0.74 570
Scharnhorst 20000 0.76 585
Vittorio Veneto 20000 0.98 755
Richelieu (WW2) 20000 1.25 963

Seems like game values on your graph are quite generous. Bismarck and Scharnhorst groups at 20km are about 35% tighter than what was measured on trial; Hood is doing about 40% better than real life. Iowa is quite close to its trial-measured value (at 20km). (link)

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Is NCal better than Iowa?

Looks like it’s some kind of bug then.

The graph is not for values in game, it’s historical values obtained from test firing (US 16" and UK 15") or official curves (the rest)

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Even if already known, I personally never saw this happening. Hull torpedos detonating. Better unload them all. It blacks out a whole section and in this example the detonation helped me alot to prevail. Despite my Gneis was already mauled from massive enemy fire. Was towards end of the match.

The question is how this happened, imho some ships are just too high in the water.

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Ah, I see. In that case the difference between the two data sets I commented on is likely just differing test conditions, “bench” shooting vs “range” shooting.

Might be worth clarifying that it’s not that naval guns are getting “less accurate” at shorter range, exactly. Sport shooters will be familiar with the idea of measuring accuracy in minutes of arc (MoA or arcmin) with MoA=1 equivalent to shooting a 1-inch group at 100 yards (metric equivalent is mils, with 1 arcmin = 0.30 mil, or a 3 cm group at 100m, but I digress). That’s against a target in the vertical plane however. Against vertical targets, most small arms dispersion patterns are going to be roughly circular around the mean point of impact.

HMD is a measurement of horizontal-plane dispersion; if we used it for rifles, it would be a measurement of when the round hits the ground again at the other end. Because the round is arcing in flight this “beaten zone” will be an ellipse with its main axis along the G-T (gun-target) line, even though it would still have been a circle if the same dispersion pattern had been measured vertically (in flight) like a paper target would do. Ballistic arcs mean small errors in the vertical will lead to larger drift on the ground pattern than in the horizontal.

This means that vertical error is more pronounced at closer range. Basically the ellipse is longer when the trajectory is flatter, so the vertical component of the error makes a bigger difference. As the round’s fall to earth gets farther away, it has a greater vertical component, so the ellipse becomes more circular.

For naval shooting, horizontal ballistic error (just based on the gun’s ballistics, nothing else factored in) is basically linear, but the vertical ballistic error is going to be a non-linear function for this reason. And because the TMD is related to the product of both the length and width of the ellipse (the horizontal and vertical errors), it also becomes non-linear, and you’ll get graphs like those shown. Here’s another one I had which shows some of the same base data I think:

Spoiler

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It appears to show some guns get more accurate with range, but a better way of thinking about it might be their dispersion-pattern ellipses are really just getting relatively fatter and more circular, even as they’re growing in overall size with range. Because of this aspect of how TMD is calculated, on this kind of TMD y-axis one should expect a good gun (like Bismarck’s) to curve down and then basically go flat-line with range, whereas an increasingly inaccurate gun (like some of the WW1 weapons shown here) will actually start to curve up at longer ranges.

It’s also worth noting that there’s a lot of graph fitting to not a lot of actual real world data points, as Jurens warned frequently. And that all this is purely the ballistics of an otherwise perfect shot. This is the baseline accuracy which is confounded by all the other factors (particularly fire control system factors, which introduce a whole new error variable).

That said, it can be fun to extrapolate, as Jurens did, from TMD to probability-of-hit, as a back-of-the-envelope estimate of the absolute number of hits one should expect from naval guns, removing all other factor besides ballistics, which for him produced an absolute maximum of a 12% probability of hit by a single gun on a 60m target (that’s about the length of a Flower-class corvette, for reference) at 25000m. Using the same way he did his rough estimate on the same chart above (for 20000m HMDs), you get:

Ship Range TMD 8 gun group Hit Probability (corvette)
North Carolina 20000 0.383 295 0.19
Iowa 20000 0.429 330 0.17
Yamato 20000 0.44 339 0.16
Bismarck 20000 0.458 353 0.16
Hood 20000 0.544 419 0.13
Colorado 20000 0.55 424 0.13
King George V 20000 0.566 436 0.13
Rodney 20000 0.57 439 0.13
Richelieu (postwar) 20000 0.71 547 0.10
Littorio 20000 0.74 570 0.10
Scharnhorst 20000 0.76 585 0.10
Vittorio Veneto 20000 0.98 755 0.07
Richelieu (WW2) 20000 1.25 963 0.06

Again, that is purely ballistics under otherwise perfect conditions (and also likely has huge error bars on any specific ship considering the data behind it). It would be interesting to know from in-game tests how closely WT gets to this, or whether the prospect of hitting (at most!) 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 rounds in some cases was just too depressingly random and they’ve goosed it to keep battleship games from lasting basically forever.

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Question.
I want to get Iowa to play it (only) in EC.
With Alaska and generaly I like to play defensive/survive style where I try to keep distance from blob and fight at around 14+ km range rather than get in furball for kills and risk death.

This new fantasy copium ship, is there any room to breathe and to have any chance of some meaningful game time in EC or is he just wiping everything around him?

It seems to me the APC shells don’t do much damage on Roma. I’ve launched salvos after salvos and I am hitting the target but as Roma I’m always at the bottom of the list in score and damage given. The slow ROF doesn’t help. I’ve maxed it out with training.

That’s caused by the bad mix of dispersion+slow ROF.

If you want to farm damage and score aim for the engine section of the ships, where a lot of crew is nested.
Don’t focus on a single ship but keep scanning for anyone that’s giving you broadside while angling from another ship and start a crossfire.

As it is righ now she is a full on support ship.

I’ve unlocked her just yesterday night and only paid GE for the AP shell, everything else is stock + expert crew (not ace).
I can say that, after a few matches, when your reload goes above 1min due to a random fire on her (not even on the barbettes), I decided to leave her and start grinding for Richi.
Saying that she’s fine in this state is like bashing your head on a brick wall screaming that it feels good.

Don’t want to delude myself or try to find a way to enjoy her.
If they’ll put her on par with other ships I’ll try her again, otherwise the Duilio and Cavour are way better.

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we need more naval modes (Eternal Conflict but its PVE when?)

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I wouldn’t say it quite that bad but Dulio and Cavour do seem better at doing damage and even absorbing damage. I have managed to do better as I kept playing and sometimes get lucky with explosions. There are way too many ammo explosions on Roma. If there’s a fire, good chance you’ll blow up. Not so with the Cavour. It really disappointing what they did to Roma. A travesty actually. The ROF is ridiculously slow. Way slower than other Italian ships. And the shells when they hit don’t do much. And then they complain or say no one plays Italy. Geez, what do you expect if you model the vehicles as junk. I’m gonna keep at it and train the crew research everything and maybe it will become reasonable.

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With fire extinguisher set to auto ( I repair only if really necessary) and pointing my bow always at the enemy the only thing that sunk me was the “loss of unisnkability” mechanic as secondary guns kept hitting me all over and destroyed random hull sections. (Maybe I was lucky)

Tell us how she performs when fully spaded, maybe she gets a bit better with all the modules.

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Sorry to break it to you, but Richelieu isn’t that much better.

Yeah its RoF is better, but it’s still slower and less accurate (in fact, its dispersion is just as bad as Roma’s) than Bismarck, Amagi, Mutsu, Gneisenau and Sevastopol. Combine this with the absolutely garbage kill crediting system and the damage rework, and you’ll essentially only get assists and will go down to lost unsankability.

Both Roma and Richelieu needs buffing:

  • They should get the same dispersion as other BBs.
  • Roma RoF should be increased to max 1.6 or 1.7 RPM, Richelieu to 2. I don´t want to hear any “but IRL” argument when both Gneisenau and Sevastopol gets completely ahistorical RoF
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Yeah, ammo wetting makes a huge difference normally. Like on Vanguard, im finding her a little squishy at times, but I think its entirely the lack of this mod as ive barely begun spading her

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Oh, no…

So, by default, if you don’t play the 3 big nations in WT ( USA, Germany and Russia ) you’re bound to suffer?

  • Yamato just explodes and the more time pass, the more people start to aim under the turrets and pop them
  • Vanguard has the same bad dispersion as Roma (and Richelieu as you said) but with the huge handicap of having only 8 guns and not great firing angles (so you’re stuck with only 4 guns)
  • Richelieu has a decent reload but bad dispersion (at least she has all her guns on the front and better magazine armor and ammo layout than Dunkerque)
  • Roma is a mess.

I’ll still try to research Richelieu.
Don’t really want to leave the “minor” nations ( thinking of the Imperial navy, the Royal Navy and the 2 queens of the Mediterranean Sea as minor compared to Russia always make me cringe), to go for the pampered trio ( more of a duo, the americans have their share of suffering with their BBs before Iowa).

If nobody play them they’ll never collect enough data and they’ll always think that those ships are in a fine state.

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Dispersion is bad, but actually dont find the firing angles too bad. The bigger issues she facing at the moment:

  • Better FCS is not modeled. She has a C&P of Hood’s, which just feels wierd having a 1945 ship with the same tech as a 1918 ship. (we saw with PoW and Hood Vs Bismark just how big an impact PoWs more advanced kit had.)
  • The Ant-Air Radar that should be Vanguard defining ability with her powerful secondaries but is just a buggy mess right now and practiclaly unusable
  • Reload rate should be buffed to 25 seconds (all british 15" guns should be 25 seconds, but has been denied for “reasons”, on Vanguard it would make a meaningful feeling of progression)

TLDR: Vanguard right now just feels like a late refit Hood, not a new ship

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I quite literally have not seen a single Sovetskyy Soyuz in EC. 4 full matches in the Iowa and the only contest I get is a Gneisenau and the occasional Richelieu.

Shouldn’t gneisnau have a really bad reload or something?

Not sure, nor do I really care. Typically my first salvo does close to splitting them in half.

Vanguard has slightly better dispersion than Roma and Richelieu.
Roma and Richelieu have the following dispersion values:

  "maxDeltaAngle": 0.34,
  "maxDeltaAngleVertical": 0.39,

While Vanguard is

  "maxDeltaAngle": 0.32,
  "maxDeltaAngleVertical": 0.34,

And Bismarck, Iowa, Yamato and Soyuz (because of course it also gets the best stats here as well) for reference

  "maxDeltaAngle": 0.22,
  "maxDeltaAngleVertical": 0.24,

Dispersion needs to be standardized.

Decent reload compared to Roma sure, but otherwise she’s pretty low on the RoF ladder of 8.0+ BBs. And just like Roma, it has a double whammy effect with the bad dispersion.

Both Roma and Richelieu are in dire needs of buffs to their accuracy and RoF.

To be fair, the current aiming system we have in the game is already essentially radar locking and guidance. That’s one aspect they can’t really model IMO.

If they standardized dispersion and decreased the reload to 25s, it would probably fit reasonably well at 8.3.

Yes for both Gneisenau and Sevastopol. While they had the same guns as Bismarck, they lacked a lot of the mechanical assistance for the reload and most of the work had to be done by hand.

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