Naval EC should not become another version of standard Naval Battles

[Der_Zerkquetscher]

@ParryACO-psn

Counterpoint: breach is still a viable place to hit, which effectively does the same thing. I feel barrel sniping shouldn’t be ‘as strong’ as it is but it should 100% still be a thing.

i mean it is kinda dumb but fits in the still somewhat esports implementation of ground rb. And is mainly a problem for people that want to stare straight at enemies while on a 10 second reload or poke their barrel out from behind buildings. That whole thing is completely negated in sim, where you have to account for your guns parallax and hitting an enemy barrel like that is simply pure luck. When youre not on your 1000th match in the same tank and know how much parallax that tank has in mm.

Besides that being completely offtopic that was just examples how it doesnt work and never has, in 13 years of wt, to change mechanics that are more or less fitting for the gamemode they r in. Ground RB is designed with esports in mind. 10-15 min matches, pinpoint accuracy with camera in barrel, etc. etc. is it a bit bad that a 120 mm smoothbore gets taken out by 2 subcaliber darts of a PUMA? yes…could be toned down vs rapid firing aa guns and such. would it be bad to not give one of the most important parts of the tank a hitbox? absolutely. And for quite a lot of tanks the breech isnt a viable weakspot…
But, once again, thats offtopic.

What i want to get at is: distinctive gamemodes should have distinctive characteristics imo to differentiate them from each other. And realistic as such, obviously doesnt have arcade markers, doesnt have the aim help, still has scout marker popups, because it is designed with quick, esports-like gameplay in mind. And such is Naval realistic. There being skill involved to know where your shells will go differentiates it from arcade and thats working perfectly fine imo. Who doesnt want to bother with the aiming system (which admittedly could use some better functionality, but it does work once you put time into learning how it functions) the arcade point and click just to see your whole salvo going 300 m to far for no apparent reason has no place in RB and would only make RB much worse and too similar to arcade. When theres already tons of players that dont even play arcade anymore because of the implementation of the automated arcade aiming system and no option to chose not to use that.

[ParryACO-psn]

I wouldn’t say it’s dumb but it should be toned down just a little bit, at least against smaller calibers.

But you are right; it’s going off topic.

[_loky]

@Ckasaron

There’s nothing to get used to - sure you can see where your guns are aiming to a point, but the distance measurement is constantly wrong and when paired with artificially enhanced gun spraying it makes hitting outside 5km basically not worth it.

? this is from an a record i have from 2 years ago and the aim was more harder than now who are alot more simply in those time with some buff (in general for the ammo ecc.) i dont see this spray or inconstatly measurament. maybe you have to train an a bit in shooting range with free test where you can shoot all the type of ship the aim is not was harder in past and now is not more harder, now is more simply

[DirtyOldCommie]

@_loky

i dont see this spray or inconstatly measurament. maybe you have to train an a bit in shooting range with free test where you can shoot all the type of ship the aim is not was harder in past and now is not more harder, now is more simply

I have to disagree with that. I find Gaijin’s current range finding system to be at times so inaccurate as to make it almost impossible to take any given distance at face value. It is too often that I find myself muttering “The game’s been lying to me again” when I have to observe sets of measurements being at odds with each other even with my and my target’s course and acceleration having been taken into account. Allow me to quote myself from 2 years ago:

@DirtyOldCommie

This can also be observed during Test Sails even while you and your targets are stationary. The measured distance changes periodically between the same two values upon refreshing target lock.

And it’s not that it’s merely a case of the range being displayed wrongly while the target actually remains fixed on the spot at the correct distance. If you do not adjust your aim to the newly shown value, you will miss. Even given the inherent inaccuracy of the range finders in the game, it is bizarre that both distances turn out to be the correct ones at the time of their measurement, before reverting back to the other value.

If Gaijin can’t manage to provide consistently accurate distances between two stationary ships in Test Sail, it’s no wonder players have to cross their fingers in battle whenever they embark on yet another round of Schrödinger’s Distance Measurement.

That being said, all this can be mitigated against to an extent by frequently refreshing target lock and deliberately ignoring measurements that seem incorrect, relying instead on your experience to adjust your aim properly, and so making hits at extreme ranges and impressive scores still entirely possible.

But it shouldn’t have to be that way; Gaijin seemingly dropped the ball regarding distance measurement accuracy ever since they abandoned the original RB aiming system (which for various reasons I consider vastly superior), and I understand Csakaron’s frustration. However, I don’t share his belief in the solution for the problem, as fixing distance measurement inacurracies strikes me as preferable to porting the needlessly simplified AB aiming system over to RB.

[_loky]

ALL THIS ARE TAKEN FROM EX NOT FOR SHAMING.

i dont have this problem with my level 100 expert crew he give the same exact location and measure and even if you dont trust you can control for fix this bad calculation even in a real fight becouse you can control your aim and not only wait the measure

this is an a ex you can control your aim and check manually the actual real range you dont need wait only your crew measure.

[Bombe18]

I can agree that distance are not friendly for new players.
The problem is that gaijin totally removed this information from sight.
It was on the old one !

Farest there is, bigger is the estimation error.

That’s one of the reason that the old one was better than the actual one.

And this is a reason that I asked in the old forum (was accepted in old forum in suggestion and deleted in new one) a idea to mix new one and old one

The actual one is not the best one, its potable.
But it need to be reworked.
GAIJIN ! I see you ! Reworking do not mean that we want assisting our shots like arcade !
But like ideas the the link above è_é

[Gamex1]

thing is though in random battles, at least in NA and EU servers, like maybe 30-40% of ships in the match are bots compared to EC where maybe theres like 3-5 players per team

[Der_Zerkquetscher]

@Ckasaron

There’s nothing to get used to - sure you can see where your guns are aiming to a point, but the distance measurement is constantly wrong and when paired with artificially enhanced gun spraying it makes hitting outside 5km basically not worth it. And if its that bad with just DD guns, I can only imagine how terrible it is with anything taking longer to reload.

Then you can maybe solve the riddle of how all those top tier Naval RB players are able to hit shots way beyond the accurate range reading distance of 20 km? Or how people are able to hit maneuvering targets while they themselves are in a full turn from 15 km out? What do they know that you apparently dont (yet)? If its not working and impossible to learn according to you, then how can some players make it work? Start with that question i am begging…

You are frustrated because you can’t get RB aiming to work for you because youre relatively new to the mode. But im telling you. Dumbing down important parts of a gamemode dumbs down the entire gamemode and a learning curve thats not there anymore will make it 0 rewarding to have experience in it. If you want to just goof around, sail a bit here and there and click at stuff, thats perfectly fine. Nothing to be ashamed of, totally understandable. Arcade it is then…Though im 100% sure that comes with a completely different skillset you will need compared to RB. Like it is with ground arcade. Way quicker, no need to bino and id stuff all the time, but reaction time and awareness need to be on a whole different level.

[Der_Zerkquetscher]

@Ckasaron

Not aiming for me. Just showing where to shoot only when the plane is close enough to bother practically engaging.

Huh??? So you want a marker thats showing you how much you need to lead your guns if the enemy plane is keeping its current vector of movement in a ww2 m16 and that wouldnt be called “the system is aiming for you”?
Why not simply learn how much to lead your respective guns to hit enemy planes that are close enough to “bother actually engaging”?

@Ckasaron

Barrels already clip through terrain and solid objects - making them immune to being shot at makes them consistent in being omniscient. And “rendering some things frontally immortal” is also partially the point. If something throws away all its functional mobility for armor and sometimes firepower, it should be frontally immortal except to purpose built derp cannons. For example the T95.

Why would you guess do they clip through terrain? that was even explained once upon a time by the snail why they went with that decision? Because in the cqc cramped maps that we have in WT maneuvering across 50% of the map pool would simply be impossible in somethign like the obj 120 if the barrel had a collision model. Just move your gun if someones trying to shoot it out frontally and 9/10 times he will wiff and you can just yeet him after in complete solitude. Just learn how to use it …

[Bombe18]

@Stona_WT @Smin1080p_WT
Any thing to say ? 69% do not like …

Some of us stopped playing naval EC thanks to this update.

[Ckasaron]

@ParryACO-psn

Radar: exists

And yes, many WW2 vessels had it. That is an automated system.

Also: observers, which is their job to alert the crew on incoming threats

For the purpose of gameplay, however, all radar should be is simply 1) the rotating scanner screen and associated 3rd person pings and 2) calculated gun lead when you select a particular plane to aim at. It should not shoot them for you, because that rewards not paying attention.

@ParryACO-psn

Dead ass I’d rather fight autocannons than someone in a plane because I sniped his tank.

But then what if your tank (provided it had one) had a similar short-range lead marker for the commander’s pintle MG as to what I was proposing for SPAAGs and SPHs?

My entire goal is “buff the counters so there’s no longer an excuse to whine, but remove sleazy mechanics that reward being asleep at the wheel.”

@_loky

i dont have this problem with my level 100 expert crew

And this is probably the culprit - I don’t have anywhere close to level 100 expert crew. Why should I need such to rangefind accurately with a reserve-tier destroyer gun?!

@Der_Zerkquetscher

how all those top tier Naval RB players are able to hit shots way beyond the accurate range reading distance of 20 km?

Level 100 Aced Crews probably have far less of a problem for one, and two sheer accumulated stubborn experience to “slam their heads into the brick wall until the wall breaks.” That’s how.

I used to play Naval quite a lot prior to Update 2.05, after which the global butchering of HE rounds made my interest fall off a cliff. Back then with the old version of the RB system, it wasn’t half-bad.

But now? Forget it. I don’t have level 100 aced crews in any naval nation, nor have I played until my eyes bleed to try getting one.

@Der_Zerkquetscher

Huh??? So you want a marker thats showing you how much you need to lead your guns if the enemy plane is keeping its current vector of movement in a ww2 m16 and that wouldnt be called “the system is aiming for you”?

It doesn’t 1) turn the guns to automatically lead for you nor 2) open fire at the plane for you. All it does is tell you where to aim should you desire to kill said plane. Effectively what radar mechanics already do, but at much shorter ranges.

The purpose here is to utterly squash the real driver of the CAS vs Tank debate - the “whiny tanker victim complex.” Make the counters so common-sense to use that nobody has an excuse to keep complaining, and anyone who dares try to keep complaining makes fools of themselves until they change their preferences & tactics or leave WT. I care not which. Such folk’s refusal to adapt has caused and keeps causing repeated senseless nerfing of CAS weaponry, which doesn’t even fix the problems at all but rains collateral damage on every other game mode that didn’t deserve such.

@Der_Zerkquetscher

Why would you guess do they clip through terrain? that was even explained once upon a time by the snail why they went with that decision? Because in the cqc cramped maps that we have in WT maneuvering across 50% of the map pool would simply be impossible in somethign like the obj 120 if the barrel had a collision model. Just move your gun if someones trying to shoot it out frontally and 9/10 times he will wiff and you can just yeet him after in complete solitude.

Most maps these days are cramped enough that maintaining the required distance to avoid barrels being hit is a laughable thought.

I’ve had my barrel deliberately hit from 1km away when spading my T32s and T95.

Barrel damage is a cheat that makes autocannon vehicles insufferably annoying and makes already-not-great heavy armor life close to unbearable in any situation where you might think about actually using your armor for more than an emergency save.

[ParryACO-psn]

@Ckasaron

It should not shoot them for you, because that rewards not paying attention.

No it doesn’t.

Most AI tertiary has a bubble - at most - of 4km.

Meijiuma - for example - a player who likes to be really god damn annoying (and good) with a Ju 188A in naval and an absolute rat with a Pfeil easily tops matches with no issue.

A PT boat can just as easily sit outside that and be completely unharassed as it dumps torps with impunity. Spoiler: most people are asleep at the wheel even without autonated gunners

@Ckasaron

But then what if your tank (provided it had one) had a similar short-range lead marker for the commander’s pintle MG

You mean like it already does in arcade? What does that have to do with Naval? Nothing.

[Ckasaron]

@ParryACO-psn

Most AI tertiary has a bubble - at most - of 4km.

Meijiuma - for example - a player who likes to be really god damn annoying (and good) with a Ju 188A in naval and an absolute rat with a Pfeil easily tops matches with no issue.

A PT boat can just as easily sit outside that and be completely unharassed as it dumps torps with impunity. Spoiler: most people are asleep at the wheel even without autonated gunners

And at 4km even a slight course correction makes torpedoes miss. Unless I’m in a Shimakaze/Akizuki spamming Long Lances, I get much closer in my PT boats to drop torpedoes, to ensure they can’t dodge under any circumstance.

If a battleship captain is so tunnel-visioned on their 40km duel that they can’t scan their surroundings every few minutes, the game should not save them if they get jumped. That is, after all, what PT boats were designed to do against battleships, and they were so effective that the entire DD class was created to hunt PT boats.

@ParryACO-psn

You mean like it already does in arcade? What does have to do with Naval? Nothing.

I was finishing the other point of discussion, and no, not exactly.

Just the lead indicator, but NOT the red marker around the plane dot itself. I would frankly see this feature be added on all SPAAGs with or without radar, tank commander pintle MGs, all Heavy Flak TDs, all SPHs with HE-VT available, all Coastal Boats, and all Bluewater Ships.

A universal assist that does NOT aim for you, nor shoot for you.

[ParryACO-psn]

@Ckasaron

the game should not save them if they get jumped

But they don’t.

Most torpedoes in naval have an astronomically boosted speed in arcade and if you get within 4km of a battleship, you deserve to be lit up regardless of PT boat or cruiser.

@Ckasaron

to ensure they can’t dodge under any circumstance.

And that’s a risk you take in order to ensure it. PT boats generally won’t render unless you look directly at 'em or if the game deems they get rendered in the first place. Sometimes you can see them at 11km.

Sometimes you literally can’t see them until 5.

@Ckasaron

A universal assist that does NOT aim for you, nor shoot for you.

Then turn gunners off, which no sane person would do outside of pilotages.

[_loky]

@Ckasaron

Why should I need such to rangefind accurately with a reserve-tier destroyer gun?!

@Ckasaron

@_loky

i dont have this problem with my level 100 expert crew

And this is probably the culprit

…if you are at age 1 is normal starting with low level, crew but this is shaming abt me, i am playing even with low level crew in russian lineup (only the sevastopol), and i same dont have this huge issue for that i just writed …

@_loky

. maybe you have to train an a bit in shooting range with free test where you can shoot all the type of ship the aim

[_loky]

i dont think he’s gonna change something have taken is decision he wanna the real player wanna left the gamemode and get more attractive for casual is same of all the situation of the entire game who have taken the decision of going for casual with braindead add of copypaste veichle for all tt for give the 10% in plus of research and give more depression at all for that i’m gonna quit this he’s trait us like idiot. for some casual

[Ckasaron]

@ParryACO-psn

Most torpedoes in naval have an astronomically boosted speed in arcade and if you get within 4km of a battleship, you deserve to be lit up regardless of PT boat or cruiser.

I am not talking about Arcade here, in case you’re wondering. I am talking about Realistic where there is actual chance sometimes to sneak up on people.

@ParryACO-psn

And that’s a risk you take in order to ensure it. PT boats generally won’t render unless you look directly at 'em or if the game deems they get rendered in the first place. Sometimes you can see them at 11km.

Sometimes you literally can’t see them until 5.

AI gunners should not be a thing to have even a chance of killing something the player isn’t aware of. It takes away agency and responsibility from the player in question, and needlessly frustrates the approaching PT boat which is already fighting against miserable odds barring the increasingly-uncommon map where terrain allows actual hiding to take place.

@ParryACO-psn

Then turn gunners off, which no sane person would do outside of pilotages.

The entire game should have zero. AI. controlled. gunners. That is what I am saying. If the player in question is paying attention and sees an incoming plane, he should tab over into his AA guns, aim them himself, and shoot the plane down. If the plane jumps him too close for him to react, and the plane aims well, he dies, and its his own damn fault, where nothing should save him.

Likewise if it were a PT boat or carefully-hidden Japanese DD spamming torpedoes.

The weapons would still be plenty functional, but just like with bombers for years in Air modes, you would need to use them yourself for them to have even some chance of doing anything at all.

@_loky

…if you are at age 1 is normal starting with low level, crew but this is shaming abt me, i am playing even with low level crew in russian lineup (only the sevastopol), and i same dont have this huge issue for that i just writed …

My crew levels range from 10-30 currently in German, American, Russian, and Japanese trees thus far. At the time of making the original post I was sailing out my T31 in EC to get SP for using the He-111H-6 so I could torpedo ships for the ship-sinking skin and also slowly crawl towards the Sea Hunter and Sea Dog player titles.

[Kweedko]

@Ckasaron

AI gunners should not be a thing to have even a chance of killing something the player isn’t aware of. It takes away agency and responsibility from the player in question, and needlessly frustrates the approaching PT boat which is already fighting against miserable odds barring the increasingly-uncommon map where terrain allows actual hiding to take place.

Man, you want unrealistic in “realistic” mode?

@Ckasaron

The entire game should have zero. AI. controlled. gunners.

Because you died to one of the stupidest AI in game industry? Sure.

[ParryACO-psn]

@Ckasaron

The entire game should have zero. AI. controlled. gunners.

No. You’re asking too much from an already complex game; there’s only so much mental bandwidth a player can deal with before information overload bogs him down.

@Ckasaron

If the plane jumps him too close for him to react, and the plane aims well, he dies, and its his own damn fault, where nothing should save him.

If you’re ever too close for gunners to light you up in a bomber or fighter, you messed up to begin with. Nothing will save a ship from a good bomber, no matter how cracked he is with AA at midrange.

[Ckasaron]

@Kweedko

Man, you want unrealistic in “realistic” mode?

Because you die to one of the stupidest AI in game industry? Sure.

A game entirely based around player actions should not have automated systems killing people.

@ParryACO-psn

No. You’re asking too much from an already complex game; there’s only so much mental bandwidth a player can deal with before information overload bogs him down.

Am I really? Because as soon as you make aiming the main guns of a ship simple via porting AB’s system to RB, and you give even ships without radar a limited-range lead marker on enemy planes approaching, the player in question has all the tools to help themselves at that point if they pay attention. It’s no different than being in a tank on the ground and listening for incoming CAS overhead to decide whether its a good time to make a particular move. If you move in his field of view he may decide to target you instead of whomever he was originally after.

In the case of planes vs ships, its still quite lopsided in the ship’s favor, provided the captain is paying attention to his surroundings.

Because SURELY doing a periodic scan of your immediate surroundings every now and then isn’t THAT mentally taxing on cognitive bandwidth, now is it? Fundamentally I’m wanting ships to have to make the same “attention choice” tanks do all the time quite successfully. The only difference is that every “tank” also has multiple very effective SPAAG bolted to it, ready to use at a literal moment’s notice when the “tank” player decides to get out of sniper view to remember they exist, that is.