I meant normal matches. EC you were going to lose money pre change since spawns cost money.
I do not know about current EC, however.
if you lose 4 times a 8.7 ship with low kill amount, you’ll lose 120k
It never happened before.
A good match for me is when the game is exciting and the teams are rather balanced. When theres lots of funny, unexpected or impressive things happening (like a guy in a imeratitsya maiya sailing solo across the whole dover strait for 60 minutes and caturing a port, against all odds) Its a good match when you are fighting skilled enemies that are a challenge to beat and where you can learn one or two things.
Its absolutely dull if the match is basically decided 30 minutes in, the enemies don’t know how the gamemode works or are completely outclassed or maybe are new to naval in general and because of that not as skilled as lots of players in the other team. A close match, with lots of exciting turns of events, thats what makes or can make naval ec exciting.
Of course its also cool if you get good rewards. But for me thats secondary. BUT of course the definition of a good match for me doesnt exclude for it to have way better rewards which also makes it appealing for other players. Its obviously not mutually exclusive.
But, lets say at one point you have the whole tech tree grinded, you have a lineup of 6 to 8 ships and 2 planes in your “lineup” what will you play the mode for then? You wont need RP anymore. SL are nice, ofc, but you only need a net 0 to keep playing it. (Of course its sad af to leave a 3 hour match with 0 or even with less than 100000 sl - everyone can easily make that in two good ground rb matches in 20 minutes). But at that point only the essence of the gamemode remains. what keeps you playing when its not necessary or fun to shoot only at bots for you anymore?
But i think, its not hard to make it appealing and working for both groups or for everyone. I can actually see myself starting to grind another naval tree with some improvements.
*More players. Less bots.
*Bots spawn at objectives. A bot is only shooting back when you attack him or if he gets closer than 10 to 15 km (depending on the BR the bots are at - getting absolutely focussed by 5 enemy bots at once from almost 20 km away and 4 different angles out of nowhere isnt exactly very fun when youre in a 5.0 destroyer)
*Make teams more equal in the sense of player numbers and BRs of ships they bring.
*Start matches only with at least 8 players (or even more).
*Dont create new matches after new matches but put players in the already started matches.
*Have higher BR ships (even battlesips for the higher brackets) as free spawn ships BUT find a way where players cant simply spawn their sojuz 20 times a match. Everything else besides maybe an iowa is completely outclassed vs this abomination. (Or the other best ships of the respective BR thats played. Sojuz wont be the only outlier in that regard. Having 7.3 as the highest BR and 3 players in the enemy team just endlessly spawning Scharnhorst wont be any better for players that were put into this match with a max BR of 6.3. It will only be similarly unbalanced as it was till now).
*Implement more missions and spawnpoints for the lower BR ships to spawn and fulfill missions and objectives
*Respawn timer starting with the death of the ship is a good idea. 10 minute Timer starting with the spawn for a sojuz in a full downtier lobby doesnt make any sense. A parrot steering that thing in a 7.7 lobby could survive 10 minutes and simply respawn as soon as he sinks. And possibly even block all respawn points for that duration for this ship. One run with a sojuz, then you have to at least play one other ship for the duration of the timer. And there will be more ships played than just the two meta ones for each bracket.
*Find a mechanic that makes defending ports possible and some respawns there as well while not making it so players can just endlessly respawn there making any capture that gets discovered absolutely desparate. With a 10 slot lineup like im sure many people have you can still respawn there 10 times, instantly.
*Increase rewards and decrease respawn SL costs. How is it possible to simply be playing the game and leave the match after 3 hours with negative SL balance because you had strong enemies, stupid spawnpoints popping up 3 km next to you on the side your guns werent facing etc etc?
*think about whether a modified spawnpoint mechanic where higher BRs can be free to spawn (like top Bracket: 7.0 no Spanwpoints to spawn, 8.7: 600 Spawnpoints) middle bracket: 6.0 free to spawn, 7.7: 600 SP (or something like that) could help in bringing back some variety in which ships are played and are viable
but im not sure if this idea is universally liked or whether people prefer being able to spawn in any ship at any time without the or any spawnpoint system attached. I feel like the Spawnpoint system should stay in some form, but it should be altered. (or a replacement should be found) making it so playing the biggest bullies in a lobby is actually risky.
*Implement mechanics like scouting (Destroyers and Coastals can scout enemy heavy cruisers and Battleships which will then be highlighted but ONLY on the minimap (could be different from arcade to RB even: Arcade: full scouting similar to ground rb, especially important considering the bomber- ship interaction. RB: scouted targets ONLY get highlighted on the minimap for allied ships and more importantly for planes. Should that enemy get destroyed or critically damaged, you get a reward (and spawnpoints should such a system be reimplimented) giving all the smaller, way weaker armed ships a purpose that they had irl as well
*Fix the “bugs” of endlessly respawning carrier when the convoy doesnt get entirely destroyed, making it so the defending team is constantly losing tickets for each time the carrier is scouted and sunk.
*Change the spawnpoints for attacking harbors for the higher BRs. theres no need for 8.7 ships to be spawning 10 km from ports they can attack for half an hour
*IF some Spawnpoint system would be reimplemented: Give a bonus on the match earnings of (lets just pick a number) 50 or even 100% for players that join a match late. That could be a good incentive to stay in a match that micht be almost over, expecially if you happen to be joining the already losing side. As it was before there was basically 0 reason to stay in a match where one team already had lost half the tickets while thoe other team was still almost on full tickets. The way it was, the losing side would never get any newly joining plaers that would actually stay and finish the match.
*only IF some Spawnpoint system gets reimplemented: Implement a system that gives players that join late some SP to start with: For example: every 15 minutes after match start, 50 SP or something similar.
*Further reduce the SP rewards for killing ships way below the BR your ship is in. Constantly bullying completely outclassed ships that are no real danger to a battlesip shouldnt enable a player in a battleship to just keep respawning in it.
*I still kinda like my idea of a system that makes it so as soon as you start playing in one of the Ships of the highest BR, you would slowly LOSE Spawnpoints over time, making it so if you only go for lower tier ships, you will end up with 0 SP after you get sunk IF you didnt target anything in your weight class. (OFC might still be problematic because sometimes you just run out of things to do in your area and you will have to travel a far distance to get into action again, if you dont want to J out. But i got to admit, the respawn countdown to respawn with the same ship partly already deals with endless top BR battleship respawns.
Wild thought: there could even be something like a TroopRedeployment mechanic (most likely too complicated to implement, but one can dream). You can, should you wish to do so, if there are no enemies 30 km or closer to you request a troop redeployment, after 2 minutes without firing or takign damage you despawn and can respawn your ship on any of the other available spawns. OFC this is unnecessary with a removal of Spawnpoints as is. Ah no forget about it, its crap for bombers that might be heading towards you and maybe already have their bombs out. Bad idea^^
Probably forgot 20 other really good suggestions that should at least be thought about whether and how they could be implemented.
4 Likes
u misundersut what i say. i say. winer gets way more. loser gets noting. 0. so we can force players engage each other for win a battle
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I agree with the overall idea. I’ve suggested something similar for Nuclear Escalation, and I’ll parrot some of those ideas here (note: I have never played the old naval EC):
Part 1: SP system
Completely scrap the SL spawn cost system. They discourage playing any non-premium vehicles, and I ended up just playing the premium Sevastopol the entire time.
Replace the SL costs with a full spawn point system, similar to ground RB. This will naturally slow the progression of the game, and balance OP vehicles which would suffer in higher BRs. It would also encourage more players to play a variety of vehicles instead of just spamming their best battleship/cruiser.
I would like to see this system incentivize actions that support your team. The game should give you 1 free boat with decent armament, should you have no 0 SP vehicles available at the start of the match.
Now, vehicles such as coastal ships would experience extreme suffering, (which seemed to be the case in the previous mode). Due to this, their spawn point cost should be 0, their respawn timer should be 0, their spawn point earning multiplier should be boosted, and their SL and RP reward multipliers heavily increased. That way, you would actually have a reason to play these vehicles.
And then, the better cruisers/battleships would carry a higher SP spawn cost, only be allowed to spawn in the rear of the map, and potentially even have a respawn timer that only starts once they are sunk.
Now, here comes a more outlandish idea…
Part 2: Integration with Nuclear Escalation
From what I’ve read, the issue with the old Naval EC was the Iowa/Soyuz/Yamato being un killable by everything else. If Naval EC had nukes, this would no longer be an issue. Don’t have one of these ships but they’re destroying your team? Easy solution, go do other objectives for a bit, build up enough SP, spawn in your nuclear armed B-29, climb super high to hopefully avoid their AA, and nuke em.
I think this would work best within a future test of Nuclear Escalation, with the time period set for the Korean War. To keep it immersive, I hope they would disallow all post-1953 planes and ships. Obviously this would benefit the Iowa/Soyuz/Yamato, but I think this would be balanced out by the nukes. Combined with the Nuclear Escalation suggestions in my linked post, I think this could be REALLY fun.
Due to the slower speed of late props/early jets, this could even take place on the normal Naval EC and Air EC maps such as Denmark. Obviously the objectives would need to be reworked for the gamemode, but I think it’s very doable.
2 Likes
I mean, I like to play as CAS. But doesn’t mean I should be able to spawn CAS off rip in GRB. You can do this in sim, and it’s an absolute mess.
A large role of these ships is being able to do a lot of damage relative to their cost. If ships cost nothing IRL like in WT, every nation would’ve been running around with a million BBs as well. The only reason these other classes and roles exist is because they’re cheaper. I believe this should be reflected in game as well.
3 Likes
Not really applicable because most tanks can kill, or at the very least disable, other tanks with enough skill and strategy, therefore this kind of system isn’t needed. This isn’t the case in naval.
There should be SP in Air EC. But it should be for heavy fighters like the F-15 and Su-27. F-16 and MiG-29 should be zero or very little SP. This gives incentive to play off meta and allows light fighters to be given the same BR as their heavy fighter equivalents.
3 Likes
Not comparable.
Battleships are the backbone of Naval Top Tier.
CAS is suppossed to be an additional, support vehicle to MBTs, the backbones of GRB.
Except people play War Thunder because it’s a game, one that let them play what they like, and not RL.
I get home tired and hurt from work, I want to just be able to spend sweet time with my beloved BBs, not sweating my butt off with puny DDs being obliterated by CAs and BBs so that I MAY be able to eventually spawn a BB which, with bad enough luck, may die sooner than ideal which would send me back again to the eternal cycle.
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It makes heroic moments where an outclassed ship might still beat a much better one and moments where some hero saves you or your team much more viable. If all that happens is that the sojuz (yeah im just picking the most evil thing i know here i realize :-D) simply respawns somewhere with full crew, ammo and fully repaired, what did it actually do? Apart from sending the demon to bully your team on the other side of the map?
Without any system that makes it viable to sink the match deciding players of the other team and adequately rewards that, it would be in most cases better to simply ignore them as long as they shoot at one of your allies and not you. that would be the end of actual teamplay in naval EC. When youre sitting on the side of a sojuz where hes not looking but ignore him because hes absolutely smashin your allied bismarck on the other side of his ship. He can only target one guy! Help your allies that are in danger of losing 100s of Spawnpoints!
2 Likes
There is no backbone in GRB. It’s a combination of everything and it has a quite well developed “rock-paper-scissors” type flow for War Thunder standards. Remove one piece and you either make another piece useless, or insanely OP.
Yes, a realistic game relative to the rest of the market. That is what interests me, including the vast amounts of vehicles. I want to be able to use these vehicles, and not have them be useless.
I mean, there is always Naval RB. Or custom games. But EC modes should be more strategic imo, and being able to spawn what is essentially a very powerful vehicle for free with no downsides, over and over, defeats the whole purpose. It’s like being able to spawn the nukes for free immediately in Nuclear Escalation, except you’re one of the few people with them unlocked and they’re also on an F-15E/Su-30SM2 airframe, making them very difficult to kill.
This doesn’t mean the old Naval EC was without flaws, I could imagine them just from reading the description, but I still think it was a good base to build off of and improve, rather than just scrapping it entirely. I hope this is just a temporary measure they’re implementing until they can figure it out, but I don’t think it is :(
5 Likes
Realistic in terms of damage models, etc- not in simulating product scarcity or reliability.
If they did to Ground what you want to bring back to Naval, just imagine it:
People would be unable to spawn Tigers unless first getting enough SP with a Panzer IV, to “simulate the scarcity of the Tigers” and “so that Panzer IVs are still useful”, just like you want to simulate the scarcity of Battlefhips.
Ah, yes, the spawn face to face at point blank range with the enemy to just slam each other in a matter of minutes mode.
Well, or the “battle is over in 4 minutes because a PT boat drained tickets by capping a PT exclusive point before BBs could get remotely close to their own” (as if BBs were meant to rush into point blank ranges to cap circles).
Really? The no-progression mode people only ocassionally ever resort to for random shenanigans and specific events? That’s what I deserve if I want to play with the BBs I grinded?
Why don’t YOU go to custom battles if facing BBs in DDs is so important to you? Or, I mean, why not spawn DDs if you really want it so badly? No one is prohibiting you from doing so.
EDIT: either way I don’t think we will ever change each other’s mind, hahah. At most, come to some agreement in specific stuff as we’ve already done esrlier. We just have different preferences, I guess.
2 Likes
Not gonna lie. That sounds like an awesome idea for ground enduring confrontation on a massive 20x20 km map with 10 different spawns to chose from. Sneak around in your puma or pz4, hide and do recon. Be scared of really dangerous tanks that you might only be able to pen point blank from the sides. Secure the flanks of your own dangerous heavy tanks. You know, actual real life tactics. And not pen anything from the front with basically any tank anyhow. The damage models are there. The mechanics are there. Just not the maps and the gamemode. Just add a little more to the game than constantly rushing around because every second counts in standard battles and shoot everything, all the time, without hesitation or thinking. Which is fine, we all enjoy that as well, i hope. One day…one day.
Or there might just be another game that picks up on this. Wont have the 2000 vehicles though and wont be the same game like the one we all love and that has all the essentials ready basically though
3 Likes
To be fair, I DO find this system more viable in Ground than it was and would be in Naval indeed, as the balance, pacing and combat between ground units is less likely to lead so stagnation.
In Naval, it was easy to just become stuck and hopelessly outclassed for up to 25-30 minutes.
For instance, the ONLY reason why I’m getting the upcoming Premium Duke of York is Naval EC becoming a permanent mode AND ditching SP; because I will be able to just spawn and play it.
If matches still consisted on spending 20+ minutes being canon fodder on DDs and CCs before FINALLY being able to spawn a BB ONCE, I wouldn’t bother with Naval as I hadn’t until these changes.
1 Like
It never felt like stagnation to me in the old naval ec, but i get what youre saying. People have different attention spans, some want quick, easy accessible action for 10 minutes with reduced mechanics, some want short term entertainment and some want the real thing and are willing to invest 3 hours and thats all fine. WT imo could easily cater to all of these people, As it is with standard SIM, RB and Arcade gamemodes.
But yeah, if it brings 5 times the players to naval and is still an overall enjoyable experience, why not start with a much higher BR than before as starter ships for some of the brackets. We talked about that and i dont see why not…
Theres no debating that this being completely stuck and one team (especially the inexperienced players that dont get whats happening to them) to just get farmed until there are none left or the match ends isnt good at all for the gamemode and the player numbers.
But a 3 hour gamemode with somewhat realistic distances and ships that go their actual speed is just that. Realistic. and in reality they also didnt shoot a ship every 2 minutes. Otherwise ships would need to be able to sail at 150 kph like in WoWs. that could be cool for arcade enjoyers. Realistic Battles has it in its name that it should be just that imo. As realistic as possible in the frame of an as enjoyable as possible gamemode.
2 Likes
There is semi-scarcity simulation in GRB, but yes fair point.
I would love to test this out, especially with realistic APHE physics.
Yes. If I wanted to play fighters exclusively, I wouldn’t play ASB, I would play ARB.
If you want a gamemode specifically tailored for you, yes. I’ve done this before when super tired after work, it’s not a big deal.
I probably will tbh.
Probably not, lol. I think the current naval EC should replace the current naval RB, and they should bring back the old naval EC as another gamemode. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone say they like the current naval RB mode xD
3 Likes
Maybe works for lower BR ships that dont have the insane ranges and muzzle velocities that the top tiers have where sometimes, on the especially obnoxious maps, of one entire team, no one, no bot and no player, ever makes it out of spawn in a Battleship. While the enemy team has 3 or 4 battleships that reversed at spawn and and now sit behind an island shooting into both spawns of the other team 10 km away xD Yeah, nah thanks. Its dumb no matter which side youre on. And everyone is happy as long as he spawns behind the island because everyone has to grind and you can grind quicker if youre the one sitting behind the island (hooray you spawned on the good side).
In the end its just as dull as it gets in terms of naval battle interactions and only supports the grind mindset.
3 Likes
Oh, well, yeah, I can agree with this, hahahah.
Absolutely, in fact.
Yes, you hit the key indeed!
Current Naval AB and RB should be ditched and deleted from all codes so that there’s never a single remain of it to fall back to.
Current EC modes should be the new Default ones; maybe, if at all, SLIGHTLY reduced in size and time scale. (Max duration 1.5h instead of 3, map side 25% smaller, maybe?)
Then, your EC can come back as EC with a few polishments.
Like you said, everyone wins this way. NO ONE would miss the current Standard Naval modes.
In fact, this measure could actually make Naval be populated and successful.
This is my new stance on the matter!
3 Likes
Hahaha i laughed at the idea of that.
TBH though, i think it could/should still stay for low and maybe even mid tier battleratings. With some changes to spawns and maps it can work at lower BRs. I think. I havent played it in ages. It would still be sad to lose an entire gamemode that had some somewhat working maps. I also liked the high fidelity islands and cities that came with it, like one the one with the big watermass on one side and the numerous islands on the other where you had to squeeze through a collapsed bridge.
And ofc, for coastal.
3 Likes
Yes, agreed!
Destroyers have no issue capping and their engagement ranges and capabilities are proportional to the sizes. Of course, like you said, Coastal too.
Hell, even slow WW1 Battleships that typically engage within 8 km!
The problem comes with modern Battleships that sail 50% faster and which can engage effectively from 15 km.
Perhaps current Regular Battles should exist up to 7.0, and from 7.3 onwards, the mode would switch to a smaller version of the new EC mode.
3 Likes