Move Type 81(C) to 11.7

[MAUSWAFFE]

@TheArcticFoxxo

A vehicle that rarely launches but hits every target is far superior to a vehicle that spews missiles and doesn’t hit anything.

Until you need to defend against CAS but can’t get a missile off while your team gets slaughtered

@TheArcticFoxxo

What would you rather have, Stingers / Mistrals, or tan-sams?

The former, for the sole reason of the more comfortable BR. Speaking of MANPADS, their equivalent, the Type 91 missile is now once again the only air defense up to 11.3, which wasn’t an issue before when the next lineup past 9.7 was the 11.0 with Tan-SAM, but now it very much is an issue again.

@TheArcticFoxxo

I can also compare this to the firerate of a low-pen ammunition compare to the much slower rate of fire of a higher-pen and higher-damaging shot.

Except with low firerate I can shoot post reload, with the Tan-SAM I just can’t shoot at all. And this isn’t just for aircraft, because it has no defense on the ground either, unlike SACLOS SAM that can at least launch their missiles at ground vehicles

@TheArcticFoxxo

The FlaRak system? Sorry, would you rather me simply say Roland?

I was caught up in FlaRakPz/Rad, they have the same weapons system, but different missile selection.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Alright, so it’s equal to 10.3 ranges with better missile performance, unnoticeable search/track method, and passive tracking munitions.

It is about equal to the 10.3 in range, with better missile performance and fire and forget munitions, in exchange for highly inconsistent launch conditions and no ground defense, as well as two less total missiles that are harder to reload because it’s a big defenseless truck. It also gets IRST track, same as the Roland and no search at all apart from your eyes.

I’d still say missile performance puts it higher, but 11.0 was more than fair enough for it.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Sounds superior! Not even 10.7/11.0 have the capability of the Type-81C.

Give me an 11.0 to compare (I can’t remember any). But even then 10.7 2S6 gets 10km missiles (same kinematic range) with comparable maneuverability. Only difference is that the 2S6 gats cannons and search radar and can launch the missiles whenever, while Type 81 can fire and forget missile.

@TheArcticFoxxo

I’m talking kinematic properties, Roland 3 is helpless past 5-6km in terms of maneuverability.

Fair enough, but the Type 81 would be too, it just has a better flight path due to not being SACLOS guided. It doesn’t need to be Roland 3 equivalent anyways if it’s at 11.0 rather than 10.3

This only was an argument when Type 81 was at 10.0, which actually was a BR too low for it.

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@MAUSWAFFE

Until you need to defend against CAS but can’t get a missile off while your team gets slaughtered

Can you remind me what CAS is slaughtering your team in such a manner where he has a perfect solid backdrop and is far enough away to negate IR tracking and a launch?

@MAUSWAFFE

I was caught up in FlaRakPz/Rad, they have the same weapons system, but different missile selection.

Yeah, I probably should have just said the missile itself instead of naming an exclusive system.

@MAUSWAFFE

Give me an 11.0 to compare (I can’t remember any). But even then 10.7 2S6 gets 10km missiles (same kinematic range) with comparable maneuverability. Only difference is that the 2S6 gats cannons and search radar and can launch the missiles whenever, while Type 81 can fire and forget missile.

The 2K22? Comparable maneuverability? 9K311M-1 is quite possibly the iffiest SACLOS SAM, with a near unusable amount of oscillation and far worse tracking in almost every regard.

[Miragen]

A vehicle that rarely launches but hits every target is far superior to a vehicle that spews missiles and doesn’t hit anything.

A vehicle that cannot get a lock on anything is not superior to anything.

[TheArcticFoxxo]

The Type-81C is physically unable to lock and launch on any target throughout the entire span of a match?

[Drag0oon]

@TheArcticFoxxo

it outranges the FlaRak starting missile almost twofold.

So? Wow my stock It0, Pantsir, Tor, Adats also out ranges Roland 3.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Hell, it still has an extra 3-4km over Roland 3!

On paper sure, in actual battles no. It has a realistic max range of ~8km with lower effective range, even less against helicopters and it is very few ways to even detect incoming planes outside of audio and its gen 1 thermals. Even then this “superior” range only works in ideal conditions, if there is heavy cloud cover you have less range and less ability to even find a target. Must i remind you that it does not even have a search radar?

@TheArcticFoxxo

A vehicle that rarely launches but hits every target is far superior to a vehicle that spews missiles and doesn’t hit anything.

It doesnt though, there are a lot of very simple ways to deal with the Type 81c depending on how quickly you notice it. The most reliable and easy way to defeat is to make it overshoot into the ground, it works at most ranges and works best if you are already close to the ground. Another VERY easy way is to just be within 1km of it, the missile doesnt have enough energy or G tollerance to effectivly turn in time. Its not really harder to dodge Type 81c than SACLOS, just diffrent.

@TheArcticFoxxo

What would you rather have, Stingers / Mistrals, or tan-sams?

Just because of thier better BR placement, stingers / mistrals. If i play russia id take the 2S6 which is BY FAR the most effective SPAA at its BR in the game even if im playing in 10.0 and 10.03 tanks.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Alright, so it’s equal to 10.3 ranges with better missile performance, unnoticeable search/track method, and passive tracking munitions.

What are you trying to get at, Pantsir can do that too? Yes its better than 10.3 SPAA with on avrage worse range. Thats why it was at 11.0

@TheArcticFoxxo

I’m talking kinematic properties, Roland 3 is helpless past 5-6km in terms of maneuverability.

Same story for Type 81c, past 5km its INCREDEABLY EASY to dodge if you have some speed

[Miragen]

You’re going to struggle to get a lock on a lot of things, god forbid it’s not clear blue skies either.

Plus you can’t lock things you cannot see either, the fact you have to sit there in your modern vehicle fighting against modern jets and helicopters without radar support is a complete joke.

[SneedSellsFeed]

Agree :)

[GofereQ69843]

Why are people who have literally 0 games in type93/type81 even commenting on it’s ability to lock targets ? The new seeker mechanic was actually pretty good when introduced, but I think they made some changes. Now a lot of times I’m unable to lock helis that are 2 km away, and when it comes to planes I recently started to get locks without ability to fire (return of missfire bug?). I think you guys are too focused on the raw performance of the missile itself, but what’s the point of good missile when most of the times you are unable to use it and at mercy of rng gods.

[MAUSWAFFE]

@TheArcticFoxxo

Can you remind me what CAS is slaughtering your team in such a manner where he has a perfect solid backdrop and is far enough away to negate IR tracking and a launch?

That’s the neat part, it doesn’t need that. The Type 81 in game uses photocontrast lock rather than imaging, so it has a modeled ground clutter. This is simulated by simply making every target less than 50m away from the ground invisible to the optical seeker.

So that makes helicopters sitting low and at range practically impossible to kill and allows planes to just “dip down” after being shot to evade the missile.

Additionally gen 1 thermals and no search radar can make it somewhat difficult to find targets in the first place, though that just takes practice to overcome.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Yeah, I probably should have just said the missile itself instead of naming an exclusive system.

No worries, I should’ve seen from context.

@TheArcticFoxxo

9K311M-1 is quite possibly the iffiest SACLOS SAM, with a near unusable amount of oscillation and far worse tracking in almost every regard.

Didn’t it get a rather good maneuverability buff not long after the Pantsir was added?

But even maneuverability is worse, I feel like it’d still be fair to have the Type 81 at 11.0, considering the 2S6 has a fair share of other advantages at 10.7

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@MAUSWAFFE

That’s the neat part, it doesn’t need that. The Type 81 in game uses photocontrast lock rather than imaging, so it has a modeled ground clutter. This is simulated by simply making every target less than 50m away from the ground invisible to the optical seeker.

So that makes helicopters sitting low and at range practically impossible to kill and allows planes to just “dip down” after being shot to evade the missile.

That’s exactly what I said, a backdrop.

@MAUSWAFFE

Didn’t it get a rather good maneuverability buff not long after the Pantsir was added?

It got a maneuverability “buff” with the ATGM/SAM rework as a whole.

@MAUSWAFFE

But even maneuverability is worse, I feel like it’d still be fair to have the Type 81 at 11.0, considering the 2S6 has a fair share of other advantages at 10.7

I’d say the 81C has the upper edge in maneuverability. The 2K22 has insane close-range maneuverability, but accuracy is abysmal

[MAUSWAFFE]

@TheArcticFoxxo

That’s exactly what I said, a backdrop.

I meant as in “hovering in front of clear sky, 49m above the ground, about 5km away”, since at that point a helicopter is impossible to lock and shoot, and depending on what the IR backup seeker feels like or if the helicopter has IRCM it can get as close as about 2.5km at times.

@TheArcticFoxxo

It got a maneuverability “buff” with the ATGM/SAM rework as a whole.

Wasn’t it horrible after that, then buffed agian an update after the Pantsir? I vaguely remember something like that.

@TheArcticFoxxo

I’d say the 81C has the upper edge in maneuverability. The 2K22 has insane close-range maneuverability, but accuracy is abysmal

So Type 81 has better missiles, but lower range, no search radar, no cannons for both close range and ground defense and no ability to fire missiles without lock (such as at ground vehicles).

The missiles are really good kinematically, but that won’t carry it further than a 0.3 BR step from the Tunguska.

[WreckingAres283]

Yesterday in 11.7 battle;

Three Su-25SM3s in air, I was trying to lock at least one of them (spoiler; it didn’t work and I died to Kh-38 before I could get any missile off)
How is the Type 81 mod.(C) an 11.3 worthy SAM while its not even able to meet the minimum requirement; to lock on top tier targets. Even the IRST was not able to lock on the SM3 in the following, it was simply too far way; and in fact, I died seconds after making the screenshot.

It should go back to 11.0, while e.g. Type 11 or some ASEAN countries could be added as new top tier SAM.

@MAUSWAFFE

So Type 81 has better missiles, but lower range, no search radar, no cannons for both close range and ground defense and no ability to fire missiles without lock (such as at ground vehicles).

The missiles are really good kinematically, but that won’t carry it further than a 0.3 BR step from the Tunguska.

Unlike 2S6(M1), the SAM-1Bs lock range also depends on conditions, which is another negative.

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Another unfortunate point; we had the chance to finally have a proper 11.0 and competitive line-up, but the BR up of Type 81(C) ruined it once again.

[Miragen]

It’s infuriating how they manage this game.

‘‘There is a lack of a competitive SPAA for Japan for years… finally you have this thing’’

6 months later’’

‘‘Ah nevermind, we remembered we hate Japan.’’

Meanwhile add in another SPAA for Russia because they need one for BR 8, BR 9.3, BR 10, BR 10.7 and BR 11.7 to perfectly fit with any lineup.

But here… you can have the F-5E lmao.

[GNDM_Panzer]

@Miragen

But here… you can have the F-5E lmao.

Yeah… What a nice consolation prize for getting kicked in the jewels.

[Vamilad]

Evidence?

[CTCrusader]

Gaijin uses their own statistics to balance vehicles which are based off the performance of players who use said vehicle. This is pretty common knowledge. They have been getting better at listening to player feedback on br changes, however the majority of players it seems are against the increase of the type 81’s br looking at this thread.

[Miragen]

It’s not even a prize considering it will be 1-2 months before anyone can actually research it without spending GE as it’s 400.000 RP for it, and then who knows how much longer before they can grind modules to actually make it useful in that nightmare of a 16v16 they forced through that is universally disliked.

And all that to get f’ed on by a Pantsir because Russia was allowed to have a useable SPAA.

[GNDM_Panzer]

I was being sarcastic. It’s no consolation at all. Merely insult to injury.

[Miragen]

I know, but the reality was even worse than it being a consolation prize lol.

[GNDM_Panzer]

You’re not wrong about that.