Because all of your suggestions are the equivalent to killing it? Use common sense
So its an incentive to do so
Hmm, a nuke, or CAS? A nuke, or CAS? use common sense
Yeah, that’s the point… y’all don’t belong in Ground RB, what a plane? Then get ready to work for it or let people enjoy their game mode
Could give me a million time SL booster and i still never touch a plane. I find then excruciatingly boring
Could work for low tier ngl
So they aren’t going to happen. I’m not a crybaby for pointing out your ideas are ridiculous and never going to happen. Use common sense.
Good for you
No.
That’s already been decided.
This is very, very false.
Now in case you and @Normandy_Corsair are curious, my “CAS Reform” strategy is as follows:
Part 1: Removing rage-inducing game mechanics to lower the temperature of the discussion on CAS. CAS is implemented like a sleazy and terrible revenge weapon.
Spoiler
- Remove the kill camera, or at least limit it down to only showing the final few seconds of it, with not even a brief snapshot of where the opponent who killed you was. Rather it shows only your burning wreck and the player card + vehicle icon. Much of what renders CAS annoying is the fact that the game encourages people to use it for petty revenge. This needs to change.
- Force planes to spawn on the runway, engine off. Planes can get to the battlefield far too quickly after the person’s tank dies. Most tanks cannot relocate fast enough to survive determined CAS.
- Remove all separated helicopter pads and make helicopters spawn on the plane runway. Helicopter pads lost their AAA effectiveness years ago due to said overperforming AAA routinely hitting planes over the tank map, so this would both remove an aspect of Revenge CAS AND give helicopters actual protection when repairing and rearming, which they need.
- Remove the “Our/Enemy Team is Capturing Zone [Letter].” messages. For all intents and purposes those messages read to CAS as “fresh meat in Zone [Letter], drop ordinance there.” The game already has a flashing ticket bar and the three icons representing caps under control - if average players cannot understand caps being under control or not with both of those, that is on them.
Part 2: Restoring the Lethality of CAS’s Countermeasures, and then corresponding rebuffs to ordinance. The enemy I am going after is the excuses to complain about CAS, not the CAS itself.
Spoiler
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Drop RB’s “Earn SP to use planes” system for Simulator’s SP system, where every user has 1000SP at match start and cannot earn more through any actions. As long as CAS is a killstreak powerup, one team will always get it up before the other, and the one on the receiving end will always complain about it whether it’s actually “overpowered” or not. Under a Sim-styled SP system, if you feel that strongly about CAS, you now can spawn a Fighter yourself and kill it yourself from the first second of a match if you so desire. But if you choose not to, you no longer have an excuse to complain if CAS kills you.
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Copy over the concept from Naval where every user is given default BR-appropriate Fighters and CAS whether they bring their own or not. Ground already has this concept applied to try curbing high tier ODL by giving everyone a free SPAAG/SAM and MBT, which was literally stated to be inspired from the Naval plane feature. Anyone who hates CAS now will guaranteed have a Fighter ready to use to kill it with whether they bring their own or not - if they choose not to bother, or choose to never learn to fly, then its their fault if they get bombed.
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All Non-Radar SPAAG, Tank pintle-mounted MGs, Heavy Flak TDs (such as the Flakbus for example), and all SPHs which have HE-VT rounds would get reduced-range Arcade Lead indicators. For a stock crew, it’s 0-1000m distance. Max the Rangefinding Skill and it increases to 1200m. Max the Commander Leadership skill to increase it to 1300m. Expert qualification increases it to 1500m. Ace qualification increases it to 1600m. If you try to steadfastly refuse to fly, but hate CAS, now SPAAG are intentionally easy to learn and use to kill CAS with, so go use them. Tanks are not built to kill CAS, but pintle MGs were frequently used to scare it off, so if you are determined to use just your tank, bind independent MG controls and use them. If you want something that can “anti-everything,” grab your favorite SPH such as an M109 or equivalent.
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The anti-ODL feature of high tiers would be extended all the way down to BR 1.0. That way, every single user has competent SPAAG in their lineups. When paired with the lead marker, now you have competent counters on the ground or in the air absolutely guaranteed - you only need to get off your ass and use them. If you don’t, its now your fault and nobody else’s that you died to CAS.
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To encourage people to actually move their SPAAGs outside of their own spawns, all nerfing of APCR and APDS would be undone. If Gaijin can use a “modified formula” to give APDS correct penetration, they can do the same and edit the one they use for APCR. Shell shattered would cease to exist.
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All forced mixed belts would be restored to full APCR/APDS belts.
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All doctrinal limited APDS belts would see their limits on capacity removed - if an SPAAG wants to load full sabot, let it go ahead. If that means said SPAAG actually moves outside its own spawn and is in position to swat down CAS near the middle of the map, so be it. Your SPAAG are no longer defenseless, so get off your ass and use them to shred a few tanks, then the inevitable revenge plane.
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Any missing anti-tank ammunition a given SPAAG was capable of loading in the era it was developed would be added to said SPAAG, if it exists. All of their BRs would be recalculated with the expectation that killing tanks with them is normal and not heresy.
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All SAMs would gain the ability to dumb-fire their missiles for gameplay balance reasons as long as they can aim their launchers physically down directly at tanks.
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Helicopters would be given proper IR signatures, because the current implementation is frankly madness. IR SAMs should lock them quite easily given they use jet engine derivatives for propulsion.
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Helicopters would be given proper Doppler returns for top tier SAMs to use. Due to physics a helicopter is never truly stationary due to its wing spinning.
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Helicopters or planes would no longer be able to pre-detonate any incoming SAMs with their own ordinance, other than flares or chaff specifically.
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Restore the 3rd Person Bombsights all bombers that have their own bombsights once had in RB mode prior to 1.59 quietly removing them.
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Bombs have been systematically neutered beyond all semblance of reality for years now. Just because a bomb lands far enough away that the tank is “mechanically operable” does not mean the much-squishier crew inside would be unharmed. Currently WT relies on 30+ PSI armor-warping to declare a tank “dead,” but based on a quick Google Search just 10-12 PSI is actually needed to incapacitate a human being via heavy concussion and traumatic brain injury. For a “standard” 1000lb M65 bomb, this means 60m lethal radius for open tops, 25m lethal radius for closed-top non-NBC-sealed vehicles, and the current 12m radius only for NBC-sealed modern MBTs with anti-overpressure protection systems.
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Rockets are in a similar state. Using the HVAR rocket as a standard, the same 10PSI threshold is achieved on open-tops 10m away from impact, 2m from impact on buttoned-up WW2-type tanks, and only NBC-sealed MBTs demand direct hits to kill. All bigger rockets scale up from there.
Part 3: Giving both Tankers and Pilots more stuff to actually DO other than strangle each other in frustration. Both largely lack the majority of their real objectives, and furthermore tanks are stuck in sardine-can maps that make them feel helpless.
Spoiler
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Borrow the concept of caps doubling as spawns from Naval EC. All existing cap zones would now function as spawns, and all existing spawn zones would now function as caps. All spawn-protection red-zoning and highlighting of spawn campers would need to be removed in order to make this work, however, because its not like the feature really helps stop determined spawn campers anyways. Each team begins the round with one cap to spawn at under control like in Battle Mode. I got this idea from OG Star Wars Battlefront 2, and only years later did I realize Gaijin already added it to Naval EC.
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Begin expanding map sizes wherever possible due to the altered objectives doubling as spawns. Now when someone inevitably dies early game, they can spawn up front closer to the action instead of an agonizing 5-10min crawl back to action only to die to a bush with a gun barrel sticking out of it. Simulator-sized Mozdok should be THE standard map size - if the map needs more than just three cap zones, so be it. Naval EC proves the game can have as many caps as is necessary, so if a map that big has say 15 objectives, so be it. With all these new places to spawn, spawn camping is greatly reduced in frequency. If you spawn at a hot objective and enemies are within shooting range of you, and you then die, that’s you’re own damn fault. But if you are part of a flanking party and reach the enemy team’s rear spawn, you can capture that rear spawn for your own team and actually encircle the opposing team properly - thus there’s no need to sit there spawn camping to deny them reinforcements.
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Introduce AI Pillboxes and AT guns to defend objectives under control of a given team. The objective teams spawn with has them set up already, but for newly-taken objectives you drive up to empty pillboxes/gun mounts and then install them. These vary from BR to BR, scaling in lethality appropriately. The existing code used for Crew Replenishment or dropping Ammo Boxes could be repurposed here. Killing these units bleeds ticket chunks just like killing players would, and would also reward the same RP+SL as player kills. This would make pushing enemy caps harder, but give CAS something to do other than directly kill player tanks that actually helps their own team via preemptively neutralizing these.
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Introduce a group of artillery vehicles and a group of rocket artillery vehicles at the back corner of the tank map behind their rear-most spawn zone. These would be the vehicles people call upon for “Artillery Support,” and if they get destroyed for any reason then teams can no longer call artillery. Furthermore, artillery units and rocket units would be also scaling with BR, and ideally varying from nation to nation. When paired with the aforementioned restoration of overpressure lethality, now artillery would be deadly enough to make people move, no questions asked, as it should be. To balance it against 16 people spamming it at the same location, each team would get three shared uses of each with their own reload times for each battery after use. Killing these rewards and bleeds tickets like player kills do, intentionally.
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Reintroduce bombing targets to outside of tank maps, and spawn a supply convoy of trucks (Studebaker US6, Sd.Kfz. 6, YaG-10, Type 94, CCKW 353, etc. for other nations) which start driving towards the rear enemy spawn zone. Killing them rewards like player kills but does not bleed tickets, rather each one arriving successfully adds the ticket equivalent of 10 player kills to the team’s ticket bar.
THAT is how I would fix CAS. Remove idiotic game mechanics that annoy everybody, unshackle the anti-air counters to their true lethality, un-nerf all the ordinance to its true lethality, and give all parties their real objectives to do besides “go play in this cramped sandbox and kill each other” the game currently does. Anyone who wants to pick up their preferred counter is now empowered to do so. Anyone who chooses not to loses all excuse to complain about CAS for making that choice.
Effectively removes helicopters from the game
Yes and no. It increases their transit time from pad to action, but that’s partially the point, so they cannot hop up and down on their pads while spamming long-range missiles within immediate range of tanks on the tank map.
Furthermore, the added objectives besides player tanks ensure even with longer transit times, helicopters still retain useful purposes even if they are just using unguided rockets and guns.
Yes, by such an amount which effectively removes them as an option. Go time how long it takes these helis to go from airfield to 3-5km from battlefield and then compare that to actual game length
Well, that is the best idea I had regarding how to remove the abuse of hovering up and down on helipads while spamming long-ranged missiles, and also how to give helicopters effective defense when rearming like planes already have, because plane AF AAA is already strong.
What would you propose as an alternative, then, if its such a bad idea? Did you read the rest of the overhaul or just stop there upon finding one line you didn’t like?
How are they going to rearm 20km from battle
They would land on the plane runway and rearm there?
Yes, how are they going to 1. Even get to the battle in the first place 20km away in a helicopter and 2. Have time to go back 20km again and then 20km back to the battlefield totaling 60km
Ground battles last minutes and not many of them.
Well for starters regarding match length and ticket bleed rates, the timer could go up to 60min and ticket bleed rate dropping correspondingly.
As for the actual question, they would spawn just off to the side of the front tip of the plane runway and simply…fly there. It is deliberately intended for Fighters to be able to take off and fly well ahead of their choppers to clear the skies before the Choppers or Fixed-Wing CAS arrive.
But beyond that, I do not know how to provide helicopters a closer-in spawn point without reintroducing the problems I am trying to solve - choppers hovering up and down while spamming long range missiles. If their helipads are given functional AAA defenses those same AAA units become oppressive like they used to be for months, shooting planes well away from said helipads again, yet if bare helipads are added close to the map, helicopters have no protection whatsoever, which is also something I am trying to address. Thus, do you have any ideas?
And did you read the rest of the proposed reforms?
Why, nobody is going to stay that long
You literally would not make it to some battlefields before the game was halfway over with even if you first spawned it.
On a greatly enlarged map with 15 total objective caps that double as spawns, a slowed ticket bleed rate, yes they very well could stay longer. Or at least that’s the idea.
They won’t. Spawntrapped 3 minutes in like always
Even on much larger maps with tons more stuff to do? If a team is so terrible as to lose 14 of 15 caps and get boxed into one remaining spawn zone, that’s their own damn fault, and time to let natural selection run its course.
Happens on red desert right now!
Well Red Desert, like other extra-large maps, currently has just three caps which do not function as spawn zones for the team controlling them like I am proposing. Thus you get lots of ODLs who refuse to drive back to action after dying once, and remaining people get overrun back into their fixed, unchangeable spawn zone.
So it’s not really a completely fair comparison.
There are useful ones tho
So 3000+ sp for f18 with agm84. Grind all that just to face sm sv which will nullify your presense entirely for 70-110 sp. Without even having to shoot you down. Also how often would you be able to spawn cas for that price?
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