Okay… So let me get this straight, the Mirage 2000 being at 12.3 and having not only radar missiles comparable to the American 7M, BUT, having the Magic 2 missiles which (I’m pretty sure) get IRCCM and are fairly comparable to the American 9M at 12.3. Now one could make the argument, that the F16A is much more maneuverable and although that is true, the Mirage 2000 still dominates in the one circle at 12.3 and on top of that once you get to 12.0 the chance of you getting into a dogfight is much, much lower just due to the fact its mostly missile combat at this point. While still the F16A (with its best loadout) only get 6 Aim 9L’s, which aren’t horrible but lack IRCCM. Keep in mind this is its best missile loadout, it gets no 7M’s or any type of radar missile while still at 12.7. In total it could be argued the Mirage 2000 is BETTER than the F16A but yet it sits at 12.3 and not 12.7. I belive it should either get moved up to 12.7 or the F16A should be moved DOWN to 12.3
AIM-7M is superior to the French radar missile.
Magic 2 being as-good as 9Ms should make it 12.7 though.
And no, the F-16A should never drop below 12.7 irrelevant of other jets being under-BR’d.
when enemy plane has chaff, both the super 530d and aim-7m are equal and same maneuvers work against both missiles so there is no difference. you can notch both of them easily.
- French SARH missiles are inferior to Aim-7M. They are some of the worst in game
- If im not mistaken, The M2Ks at 12.3 are limited to only 2x Magic IIs (vs the 6x Aim-9Ls of the F-16), and might have a fairly limited pool of CMs
- France doesnt have a non-IRCCM all-aspect IR missile like the Aim-9L. They go from Magic I which is about equal to Aim-9G to the Magic II.
Magic IIs are only effective when used within about 1-1.5km
Never going to happen
simple f16a eat mirage 2000 for breakfast
No matter how ahistoric this is. But this is an issue everyone will suffer eventually on account of dodgy targeting info simulacrum.
They would be good, if Gaijin got off their ass and fixed them. They either lack a chaff filter, or cannot accurately track something flying in a straight line because model issues. Magic 2 doesn’t remotely function well enough to account for this, and even MICA is underperforming significantly.
Correct.
That aside, F16a currently outperforms basically every other FM, and does not struggle on account of the armament. It is a better aircraft than the M2k at 12.3 in basically every way.
To your defense The magic 2’s do have short range but I have also never met a person who fires a 9L above like 3Km of range, and the F16 goes from the 9J, which is much worse than the magic 1, to the 9L.
now I get your argument it only has 2 ir missiles and 2 SARH missiles but considering the fact that the 9L while it isn’t garbage, can be flared off fairly easy.
I do understand the argument with missile count though
From what experience I have with Magic IIs. Unless they are fired in near point blank range behind the aircraft, they get flared just as easily. Likewise I’ve had Aim-9Ls ignore every flare and hit. It can be really wierd at times.
You are right, Aim-9Ls are rarely used at those ranges, but I wouldnt say never. (You have now met someone that has fired and scored a kill past 3km with Aim-9L, though granted that was in Sim, not ARB)
Overall though, being overly generous. 1x Magic II at most equals 2x Aim-9Ls in temrs of game value. When combined with the small-ish CM count and limited ammo count in the canons and the issues with the 530s. Its fairly reasonable to see why they are at that BR.
Heck, someone is gunna have to confirm for me. Maybe @Fluffy_Bucketles. But the Mirage 2Ks are also relatively slow. At least I know I outrun them all day long in things like the Tornado F3, I guess the same is true in quite a few other aircraft.
Overall. They have one notable advantage, which is IRCCM at a lower BR than most (though no lower than the Tornado Gr4 with 2x Aim-9M btw) but between how Gaijin models the Magic II and the fact you only get 2. They are fine. OVerall the M2Ks are a solid airframe, but do have weaknesses that can be exploited
The Wiki pros and cons sum it up quite well:
Pros:
- Has access to excellent Matra R550 Magic II and Matra Super 530D missiles
- Very good acceleration
- Great manoeuvrability
- Powerful pulse-Doppler radar
- DEFA cannons deal heavy damage
Cons:
- Poor energy retention at low speeds
- Low ammo count for the DEFA cannons (only 250 rounds total)
- Carries a maximum of only 4 missiles
- Very limited options for ground attack ordnance
vs the F-16A:
- High thrust-to-weight ratio gives it an incredible acceleration
- Highly manoeuvrable
- Able to carry a drop tank to extend flight time
- Access to 6 x AIM-9L Sidewinder missiles
- Has access to a wide range of air-to-ground loadouts
- Vulcan cannon has excellent rate of fire and damage
Cons:
- Does not have access to SARH missiles, limiting its BVR performance
- Very sensitive to weight changes
- Can compress at very high speeds
- No drogue chute
- Cannon ammo is limited (5.12 seconds of firing time)
Magic 2s are incredibly fast.
For about 1 and a half seconds. They’ve incredible agility even at speed though, so if you’re using them properly the limited endurance isn’t too bad. But if it doesn’t connect within 3 seconds, I would be entirely willing to wager a harrier could outrun it.
I mean the M2K top speed… Sorry wasnt clear what I was referring too
fixed it
In that case, M2K can go very fast but disintegrates if you try. Which means you are effectively slower than tornadoes, unless you’re at altitude. At altitude you can catch up to a lot of aircraft, but that assumes you were silly enough to climb with terrible BVR options.
Yep, I heard from someone who plays the M2Ks in Sim, they said they hate fighting the Tornado F3s because they just run away instead of commiting suicide trying to turn fight :D
M2K redlines well before you get any respectable speed at low altitude. I think mach 1.12 is as far as you’ll get, from memory. But your plane is falling apart at that speed, so slower is where you generally end up.
The problem is that we have reached a point where if you enter a game below 1BR you are a God and if you enter a game above 1BR you are a sitting duck. You can no longer separate 4th generation fighter aircraft the way you used to. An F-16A is, in practice, much inferior to an F-16C, even though both are F-16s. A Mirage-2000C is, in practice, much inferior to an M-2000-5, even though both are M-2000s. A MiG-29A is, in practice, much inferior to an MiG-29SMT, or even a G, even though both are MiG-29s.
I believe that the correct thing to do (so as not to make some aircraft useless, hangar-wearing, as there are many today) even knowing that the gaijin will never do it, would be:
Separate the first 4th generation jet fighters from previous generations (with some exceptions).
And within the 4th generation, separate the initial ones that carry junk weapons, or in small quantities, from those that carry a bunch of modern and efficient weapons.
And still within the 4th generation, separate those that can carry SARH from those that cannot (with the exception of the F-14 and its junk ARH).
In the future, separate the 4th and 4th+ generation aircraft from the 5th generation, which, at this rate, will arrive within 2 years or less.
About my experience with Mirage-2000 and F-16 NETZ.
I got the M-2000 from the event, and I love “Nez Pointu”, any opponent of his tier or below will be in serious trouble if they face him, in fact his SARH missiles are not good, so in the BVR head on arena he may have some disadvantages, even against older aircraft, but if it gets to DOG FIGHT, he is a monster, the Magic II I have nothing to complain about, they have never let me down, the DEFAs cause a lot of damage, no 3rd generation aircraft or below beats him (assuming that both “pilots” know how to play), if you are not flying a more modern frame aircraft like Mig-29, Su-27, F-16, F-15 or JAS-39 you will probably lose. Before the introduction of mass ARH missiles, when you faced, especially Su-27s and F-15s loaded with missiles, you already felt a bit obsolete, like a lightweight boxing champion moving up to the heavyweight category.
My experience with the F-16 (netz) was never good, rare moments of fun, you always faced swarms of aircraft with a bunch of missiles, all of them better than yours, the only moment of equality was in the dogfight, rare moments.
the F-16A block 10 doesn’t have radar missiles
The Mirage 2000 is a flying brick with current FM. Yes it does have good one circle performance, but with a slower aircraft you’re facing, you are always forced to play two circle fight when you have run out of missile and need to kill with a gun. Because there’s no much Mirage 2000 in an average match, playing alone in a Mirage 2000 would depends much on how your team performing. I’m always being one of the player that survive to the last match, but most of the time my team are also wiped out, so my FM wouldn’t be good for fighting 1v3 due to only being superior in one circle, but if I fly the F-16A, I can easily sherdding those 3 aircraft with my even superior FM. But, I do agree, with Mirage 2000C countermeasure size increased, it should have higher BR since the chaff pod itself is a large calibre (despite saying it’s just chaff), but lowering the F-16A to 12.3 I don’t think that would be the best since also the F-16A player are abundance, while the Mirage 2000 player are lesser.
The solution is decompression, nothing more, but before the next winter update, with the upcoming BR Change, I don’t think Gaijin would decompress again the BR of Aircraft, maybe they will do, when the winter update is coming.
No one mentioned Block 10, nor does it matter.
lmao sure.
Super 530D despite the statscard are (LYING LMAO) saying 5 Mach, it is barely 5 Mach in a game. And before your missile going to the sustainer mode, Super 530D WILL ALWAYS LOSE against AIM-7F/M. I’m not joking, AIM-7F/M are faster in short range, and due to Super 530D are heavier, it is also slower to turn despite the statscard (AGAIN ARE LYING LMAOOO) saying it is a 30 G Missile. Although it is good when your missile (again) entering sustainer mode.