Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29/35 Fulcrum - History, Design, Performance & Dissection (Part 2)

I went back checking stuff through this MiG forum and I think your VNE point actually fits into the bigger issue pretty well.

My main comparison is still the MiG-29M. In game the MiG-29M is massively better in supersonic acceleration than the MiG-35. One of the tests posted in the thread had the MiG-29M going from Mach 1.0 to 1.2 in about 18s, while the MiG-35 took more than 30s. The MiG-35 has a noticeably higher supersonic drag curve in the FM, while the MiG-29M more or less keeps the old MiG-29 curve.

And honestly I still don’t see what would justify such a huge aerodynamic difference. The newer airframe isn’t just a MiG-29 with more frontal area slapped onto it. It has a cleaner overall surface, sharper LERX, a recessed refuelling probe, a redesigned and more streamlined tail and removes several features from the older airframe that disturb the airflow. This was already discussed in the thread too, and the supersonic Cd difference shown between the MiG-29M and MiG-35 was around 0.005 , which is massive compared to what you usually see between closely related fighters.

The MiG-29KR also makes your theory more interesting. Gaijin accepted 1470 km/h for the K and its FM basically hits a wall around that speed, but for the MiG-35 they argued that it can exceed its stated VNE as long as there is still enough thrust available. If that logic applies to the MiG-35, then I don’t see why the published limit for the MiG-29K should automatically be treated as the exact aerodynamic point where thrust equals drag either.

That makes it pretty possible that the 9.41 drag was tuned around a published speed limit instead of actual aerodynamic drag data.

It also makes the current MiG-29KR and MiG-35 relationship more weird. The MiG-35 is basically the de navalised development of that airframe. The tail was redesigned without the carrier arrestor hook. Yet the MiG-35 still ends up with higher drag.

So IMO the actual question is, what primary aerodynamic source justifies giving it so much more supersonic drag than the MiG-29M in the first place?

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new cockpit section, and increase in wingspan from 11,36 meters to 12 meters and increase in wing area from 38m² to 42m² i guess

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Yeah but is it physically reasonable for the MiG-35’s external modifications and wing design to produce so much more supersonic drag that they effectively cancel out its thrust advantage over the other MiGs above roughly 7 km?

I have been looking more into why the MiG-35 feels so bad once you go supersonic at medium and high altitude.
The current FM might be giving the MiG-35 too much drag, or at least too little excess power, once you get past Mach 1 around 5 to 13 km.

I am not saying the MiG-35 should have exactly the same drag as the MiG-29M. Obviously it has a different wing, different airframe details, MAWS sensors, different external equipment and a few aerodynamic changes.
The question is whether all of those differences are enough to justify the huge loss of acceleration that we currently see.

If we compare the MiG-29M 9-15 and the MiG-35 in the current FM at almost exactly the same mass:

MiG-29M 9-15

Mass: 13,058 kg
Static thrust: 15,974 kgf
Maximum thrust shown: 28,363 kgf at 1,800 km/h
Maximum acceleration: around 13.76 m/s²
Sea level top speed: 1,655 km/h

MiG-35

Mass: 13,050.5 kg
Static thrust: 17,270 kgf
Maximum thrust shown: 30,378 kgf at 1,800 km/h
Maximum acceleration: around 14.65 m/s²
Sea level top speed: 1,472 km/h

So the mass is basically identical, but the MiG-35 has around 8 percent more static thrust and around 7 percent more maximum thrust in this comparison.

At low and medium speed this actually makes sense. The MiG-35 initially accelerates better.
The problem starts when speed increases.

Once the aircraft gets into the supersonic region, especially at medium and high altitude, the MiG-35 starts losing its excess power much faster than the MiG-29M.

The basic physics is simple:

a = (Thrust - Drag) / Mass

Since the mass is almost identical, if the MiG-35 has more thrust but eventually accelerates much worse, then the difference has to come from the amount of drag being generated, unless there is some very large reduction in effective engine thrust at those exact Mach numbers.

There are also some pretty interesting differences inside the actual WT FM.

MiG-29M 9-15

Wing span: 11.36 m
Wing reference area in the FM: around 38
Wing Oswald efficiency: 0.65
Wing CdMin: 0.0074
Fuselage reference area in the FM: 38
Fuselage CdMin: 0.0076
Main fuselage transonic multiplier: around 2.8

MiG-35

Wing span: 11.9 m
Wing reference area in the FM: around 45
Wing Oswald efficiency: 0.68
Wing CdMin: 0.0076
Fuselage reference area in the FM: 45
Fuselage CdMin: 0.0084
Main fuselage transonic multiplier: around 3.1

The important thing is the relative difference.

The MiG-35 is being given a noticeably larger aerodynamic area and slightly higher basic drag values, especially around the transonic region.
Some increase absolutely makes sense.
The MiG-35 has a larger wing and also has external sensors and aerodynamic changes that the original MiG-29M did not have.
For example, the MAWS sensors and other external equipment are obviously not completely drag free.

But I seriously question whether those relatively small external changes should create enough additional drag to completely cancel the thrust advantage of the RD33MK once the aircraft gets past Mach 1.

This becomes even more interesting when looking at real MiG-29 aerodynamic documentation.
The Soviet 1987 Practical Aerodynamics of the MiG-29 manual gives actual energy climb performance for the aircraft.
For a MiG-29 at around 15,000 kg, with two R60MK missiles and two APU470 launchers, in full afterburner:

At 11,000 m and around Mach 1.7 to Mach 1.8, maximum energy climb rate is around 160 to 180 m/s.

The same manual specifically says that above 9,000 m, energy climb performance at Mach 1.7 to Mach 1.8 is better than when maintaining Mach 0.9 to Mach 0.95.

It also uses a supersonic climb profile where the aircraft accelerates around 12,000 m to approximately Mach 1.6 before continuing the climb.

That is very important because this is basically the exact altitude and Mach region where the MiG-35 feels extremely weak in WT.

This was already achievable by the original MiG-29.

For some perspective, 160 to 180 m/s of specific excess power at around Mach 1.75 and 11 km corresponds to roughly 3.0 to 3.4 m/s² of equivalent horizontal acceleration if that excess energy was used purely for acceleration instead of climbing.

Obviously this does NOT mean the MiG-35 must have exactly the same value.
The MiG-35 has a larger wing, a different airframe and different external equipment.
But it is still very interesting that an older MiG-29 with the original engines retained that much excess power in exactly this flight regime, while the much more powerful MiG-35 in WT seems to lose a huge amount of energy once it becomes supersonic.

The official UAC specifications for the MiG-35 also give:
2 × RD33MK engines
9,000 kgf bench thrust per engine
12 m wingspan
2,100 km/h maximum speed at 12,500 m

Again, top speed is not really the issue here.

The issue I am talking about is HOW it reaches that speed.

An aircraft can have a roughly correct maximum speed and still have an incorrect drag curve or incorrect excess power during acceleration.
That is what I think might be happening here.

This graph is particularly interesting because it shows the SEP envelope.

The green curves are the MiG-35.
The blue curves are the MiG-29M 9-15.
The orange curves are the MiG-29KR 9-41R.

What interests me is the region around 9 to 13 km once speed becomes supersonic.

The MiG-35 envelope starts becoming significantly worse even though the aircraft has more thrust than the MiG-29M and, in this comparison, almost exactly the same mass.
This is why I think the current FM might be applying too large a supersonic drag penalty.

My theory is basically this:

At lower speed, the extra RD33MK thrust compensates for the larger airframe and the MiG-35 accelerates very well.
Around the transonic region, drag increases strongly, which is normal.
But after entering the supersonic region, the current MiG-35 FM seems to keep such a large drag penalty that the additional engine thrust gets completely cancelled.

The result is extremely poor excess power and very slow acceleration at medium and high altitude.
I am not saying the MAWS sensors, larger wing or external equipment should have zero drag.
They obviously should add some drag.
I am questioning whether their combined effect should be large enough to produce what we currently see.

The real MiG-29 aerodynamic manual also explains that zero lift drag rises strongly around the transonic region because of wave drag, but after entering the supersonic region the drag coefficient starts reducing progressively as Mach increases.
So I would expect the MiG-35 to suffer during the transonic transition, but I am not convinced that it should remain this weak once it is already well past Mach 1.

This is why I think the MiG-35 supersonic drag and thrust balance deserves another look.

I just think the current loss of specific excess power above Mach 1 at around 5 to 13 km looks excessive compared with what we know about the real MiG-29 family and the additional thrust available from the RD33MK.

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But I don’t know, because since we don’t have any real evidence or actual drag curve data for the MiG-35 at different altitudes and speeds, there’s no real way to prove it. What we do know is that it seems to have too much drag, there’s definitely some excess there.

I’m just not sure whether making a report about this would actually be enough to get it changed. The most we can probably ask for, once this study is finished and properly put together, is for them to review it again and take all of this into account when setting the MiG-35’s values, even if that only means giving it slightly better numbers.

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image

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I believe you.

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That’s true it’s hard to get any drag curve or sep envelope of 29k(9.41) or 35. But we just need to get some top speed datapoints at certain altitudes, like in this issue where they have to refit the drag for EFT. Community Bug Reporting System

And inference based on aerodynamics, like the fuselage comparison between 29k(9.41) and 29m(9.15), 35 and 29k(9.41) (well just sensors and hook). They can act as supportive evidence for the issue.

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https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/tVmCVayIZ518

Done.

The report is basically about the MiG-35 possibly having too much supersonic drag in mid high altitude.

What I did was compare the MiG-35 with the MiG-29M at almost the same mass using localhost telemetry, clean and on full afterburner, to check if the bad acceleration was coming from the engines or from drag. Since the MiG-35 actually shows more thrust but still accelerates much worse, especially as altitude gets lower, I think the current drag model may be too aggressive.

I also used real MiG-29 aerodynamic documentation about transonic and supersonic drag behavior and excess power to support the report. All the ingame test screenshots are attached in the ZIP

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Hello super MiG-29 fans!

As an aspiring MiG-29 player, im curious as to the current state of the airframe(s). Specifically the 9-12 & 9-13. Theres a lot of old media on how terrible they were compared to competitor jets at the respective brs.

Has that changes with the flight model changes?
Thanks in advance for any responses <3

I’d say the Fulcrums are in a better place now. The FMs of basically all the MiG-29s have been improved a bit, and they feel noticeably better now in terms of energy retention and turn performance.

They also added the MiG-29 9-12 to Russia at 12.7 with R-60Ms, and the Russian 9-13 finally got R-73s. The thing is, the BRs they sit at can still be rough. The 9-13 is at 13.0, where you face a lot of aircraft with Fox 3s, and the 9-12 at 12.7 can also get dragged into those matches without Fox 3s of its own, so in uptiers it can have a pretty hard time.

And yeah, this year has basically been the year of the Fulcrums, since they also added the MiG-29M, MiG-29KR and MiG-35

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They’re much better than they were. But they’re still not as good as their peers.

@JFIESTASR will def be the guy to ask for specifics.

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Fulcrums rn are in the best spot they’ve ever been in for a long time

Besides 29K and 35 their fms are still meh but far better than they used to be
We have single pop cms, no more cancer 3-sector radar and really good roll stabilization limit.

I would recommend avoiding the 12.7 fulcrums rn
They’re one-trick ponies with just two good missiles
All the others are pretty solid rn but still overshadowed by flankers.

Best fulcrums to fly nowadays are the 29K/29M (sidegrades), 29N/SMT (also sidegrades) and then the 35.
MiG-29K is my main recommendation.
It’s just really good, good FM, br is low enough for the meh cm kit to not be a problem and the radar and missile kit are great
Naval capabilities are also great.
Probably the most fun fulcrum to fly rn.

MiG-35 I would only recommend for dueling or maybe sim.
29M will be awesome once the cm kit is corrected.
29N is broken as fuck in air arcade and a really solid 13.3 plane
If the 29N’s avionics are a problem the 29SMT fixes that while sacrificing FM.

The 13.0 fulcrums are ok.
Existence of R-73 is nice but you’re still heavily reliant on the R-27ER which you only get two of, making your offensive and staying power pretty lackluster

Sorry for big yap, phone makes it hard to make a longer coherent message due to screen size

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Well, You tried.

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Yep, the problem is that the report was rejected because there is basically no publicly available MiG-35 documentation with the exact acceleration, drag or excess power data needed to directly prove it.

The official UAC material only gives general performance figures like thrust and maximum speed, which apparently is not enough.
So unless someone somehow finds actual MiG-35 performance curves or acceleration data with proper flight conditions, there is not much more I can do with the report.

A bit frustrating because the ingame behavior looks really suspicious, but without the real data they simply will not accept it

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So even if proper MiG-35 performance documentation existed, there is a good chance the really useful stuff like detailed acceleration, drag or excess power curves would be restricted or classified, so it probably would not be usable for a public report anyway.

So we are kind of stuck either way. The ingame tests point to something looking wrong, but without public real performance data for the MiG-35 there is basically no way to prove it to the standard they want

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Or maybe we can start from the comparison between drag of MiG-29k and MiG-35. Ig it will be the easiest point. Even they are basically the same airframe except for sensors and some carrier operation device (eg. hook), they don’t share the same drag. MiG-35 fuselage drag co is higher than 29k.

Honestly, there was nothing really wrong with the 3 sectors from the N001/N019. The problem was the radar’s were just glacially slow and would miss targets until a couple of radar passes.

Blockquote

And does MiG-29k(9.41) aerodynamics document easier to access? If you fail to directly modify drag of MiG-35, you could try start with 29k(9.41), cuz just as stated they are basically the same airframe.

JFIESTASR not spanish anymore
immagine
gj5enhovvpi91

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