MiG 29's and Su 27's flight models

[Panter2005]

It feels like you don’t read what I’m saying.

I never said i want to make mig 29 9-12 12.0, you just insist that anything with R73 should be 12.7.

Mig 29 was in service before R73 only formally, but even then it’s only a year of difference. A year of difference is a lot during war, but not during peace. And it was probably only a couple of months of difference, but I’m too lazy too search for that.

I never said i want to remove r27 er completely, but to keep it only on planes that have r77s as a side grade. It’s kinematically still better than any other missile in the game.

[AlvisWisla]

That’s cause everything with R-73s is 12.7 or higher.
Mig-29G is already your dream of R-73s, go play that.

[Panter2005]

@Malekitth

R-60M is no match for 9L at 12.0

Correct, that’s why I want all mig 29s to have r73s.

@Malekitth

and 7F is better than R

I bet it would be only slightly better than r27 r if r27 r was correctly modeled.

@Malekitth

R-73+27R will be worse than 9M+7F as well.

In my opinion no, one loadout would be better for bvr and the other for dogfighting. Remember russian planes have hms and early u.s. planes don’t.

Also adding 9Ms to early u.s. gen 4s is only an idea to keep in mind, 9Ls are good enough.

@Malekitth

Not to mention the flight models.

Did you even read the original post? The whole point of this thread is to make their flight models realistic (buff them), but keeping the planes balanced AND historically accurate.

[Malekitth]

@Panter2005

The whole point of this thread is to make their flight models realistic

Their flight models should be fixed regardless of armament changes

[Panter2005]

@AlvisWisla

That’s cause everything with R-73s is 12.7 or higher.

Bruh. People that do the balancing decide on what br should a given plane with a given loadout be. People control brs, not the reverse. I know Gaijin uses statistics and bots to control brs, but that’s exactly what’s wrong with this game right now.

[Panter2005]

@Panter2005

From what I know, mig 29’s flight model has been nerfed and is now much worse than in real life, to justify it having r27 er.

The first sentence of the original post

[Ruskie_Turtles]

Hopefully they fix the mig29. It has too much drag.

[Malekitth]

Same with Su-27

[_WiKi]

In order to overcome the West’s superiority in BVR combat, the Soviets designed a different doctrine, which was based on significantly increasing the range of the missiles by increasing the speed of the launch aircraft. At first this seems illogical, since the same thing would apply to a Sparrow, but the trick they have up their sleeve is that the induced drag that the missile produces is much lower, which is why the R-27 has such strange fins.

The R-27R, obeying these variables, should be slightly better than the AIM-7M in range. I don’t think the MiG-29 has poor speed performance, so that wouldn’t be the problem in question, so if the R-27 is performing poorly it’s because its induced drag in the game is higher than it should be.

In my opinion, the introduction of the R-27E was misguided and has ruined the top tier experience since then. With a correction to the base R-27 the MiG-29 9-12/13 can easily continue at 12.0 without the R-27E while being much more balanced against the F-16A ADF and especially the inferior aircraft it naturally faces in lower BRs.

[Gotchaツ]

that’s because everything with R-73s is 12.7

There’s 4 SU-25s with R-73s and a Mig 21 with R73s and HMD at 11.7.

[AlvisWisla]

True, I forgot about the Mig-21Bison, which is only 0.3 lower than Mig-29 9.13 due to having an inferior airframe.
1.0 BR below Mig-29G.
Similarly how Mig-21Bis is 1.0 below Mig-29 9.13.

[Gotchaツ]

If we’re honest, the Mig29 FM is not far off from the 21.

[AlvisWisla]

lol Yes, 20 degrees per second sustained turn rate is DEFINITELY similar to Mig-21Bis’s 13 degrees per second sustained turn rate.

[J_ackal]

lol kind of off-topic, but did anyone try the F-4E at 11.0. Now that multipathing is almost gone it should be cracked.

R73 mean nothing now with longer range missiles, and they are easy to flare

[CommunistBalls]

@Panter2005

so mig 29s having a bad flight model was a kind of karma for having the r27 er.

No… R-27ER is not and never was overpowered. Everyone could just invalidate it by flying low.

@Panter2005

Right now bvr at top tier is hopeless if you don’t have fox 3s, especially in sim where you have a constant 12.0-13.0 br bracket, so I imagine mig 29 9-12 players are suffering now with their bad flight models.

What does a flight model have to do with BVR performance, realistically? Taking its R-27ERs just makes the situation ever more hopeless for the MiG.

@Panter2005

However, I’ve always wanted just an accurate representation of real life, not bias to one or the other side. In my opinion, if things like flight models, missiles and time periods don’t accurately represent real life, all these efforts for balance become pretty meaningless. Russians dominating Americans in bvr is dumb and the reverse of real life, but so is mig 29 flying like a boat and not being a threat in a dogfight.

Ok, look. Russian bias isnt real. R-27 was very strong kinematically IRL but suffered from extremely poor reliability rates. NATO BVR dominance is due to the outright superior radars, and doesnt really begin to materialize until we reach FOX-3 tiers.

@Panter2005

remove r27 er and r27 et from the base model su 27
-remove r27 er and r27 et from every base model mig 29, give them r73s, and move them up to 12.3 if needed (depends on how good the r73 + hms would perform at 12.0)
-remove r27 er and r27 et from the German mig 29g and move it down to 12.0/12.3

This would be horrible for balance. Flanker survives on its (now obsolete) missile kit, throwing every point into its offense.

R-73s are nuts at 12.0, especially considering Magic 2s are on a Mirage 2000 at 11.3 and 11.7, and have no issue dunking on everything. R-73 is even stronger, and you get 6, not 2. Moving them up to 12.3 just screws them over, as the meta up there is FOX-3 spam, not IRCCM furballs.

As i continue to reiterate… R-27ER is not “overpowered” or broken or anything. At this point, I’d say it is quite bad, unless youre playing a Yak-141/MiG-29 downtier just due to the FOX-3s invalidating FOX-1s.

[Panter2005]

@CommunistBalls

No… R-27ER is not and never was overpowered.

You must be trolling.

@CommunistBalls

Everyone could just invalidate it by flying low.

No, everyone HAD TO fly low, BECAUSE of the r27 er. There was no other way to survive. The main reason being it’s top speed of mach 5.8, which is still the highest in the game.

@CommunistBalls

What does a flight model have to do with BVR performance, realistically?

This makes me think you’ve never cranked at high altitude. Once you drop below mach 1 it’s over, you lose all your speed. And that’s me saying it, playing u.s. planes with good energy retention. Imagine how easy it is to dump all your speed in a mig 29 or an su27 rn.

@CommunistBalls

R-27 was very strong kinematically IRL but suffered from extremely poor reliability rates.

I’m not saying r27 er wasn’t very strong kinematically. I’m saying it’s waaay too good to be considered an aim 7m equal. R27 er was introduced in 1990. Aim 120 was introduced in 1991 and r77 in 1994. The real aim 7m counterpart is r27 r. Aim 7m was introduced in 1982 and r27 r in 1983.

@CommunistBalls

Flanker survives on its (now obsolete) missile kit, throwing every point into its offense.

If it had it’s flight model improved, then it wouldn’t survive only because of missiles, would it. In dcs flanker has only 1 degree per second worse turn rate than f15. And has a literal cobra button.

@CommunistBalls

Taking its R-27ERs just makes the situation ever more hopeless for the MiG.

How is, taking r27 ers, buffing the flight model, giving it r73s, and buffing the r27 r to make it realistic and on par with aim 7m, making the mig 29 hopeless. You must understand that you trade an op bvr missile for a balanced and still very competitive bvr missile and you gain a better flight model and what would be the strongest ir missile at 12.0.

@CommunistBalls

R-73s are nuts at 12.0, especially considering Magic 2s are on a Mirage 2000 at 11.3 and 11.7, and have no issue dunking on everything. R-73 is even stronger, and you get 6, not 2. Moving them up to 12.3 just screws them over, as the meta up there is FOX-3 spam, not IRCCM furballs.

R73 would be nuts at 12.0 in the previous patch. Now as you said bvr is the meta, as it always should’ve been. R73 while still being a very strong missile and a serious addition for the mig 29, wouldn’t make the mig 29 op. Btw bvr is now the meta now NOT because of fox 3s, but because of multipathing nerf. If they made an 11.0-12.0 bracket in sim, the r27 er would completely destroy this br bracket.

@CommunistBalls

As i continue to reiterate… R-27ER is not “overpowered” or broken or anything. At this point, I’d say it is quite bad, unless youre playing a Yak-141/MiG-29 downtier just due to the FOX-3s invalidating FOX-1s.

R27 er is “quite bad” against fox 3s? No way, it’s not like any fox 1 missile is dogshit against fox 3s. The fact that you say it’s “quite bad” only proves how strong it really is, if it can in your opinion somewhat keep up with fox 3s, but it’s quite bad compared to them.

[CommunistBalls]

@Panter2005

You must be trolling.

Maybe you flew into the ground one too many times.

@Panter2005

No, everyone HAD TO fly low, BECAUSE of the r27 er. There was no other way to survive.

No, not exactly. Climbing was still viable, even if you had sparrows.

@Panter2005

This makes me think you’ve never cranked at high altitude. Once you drop below mach 1 it’s over, you lose all your speed. And that’s me saying it, playing u.s. planes with good energy retention. Imagine how easy it is to dump all your speed in a mig 29 or an su27 rn.

Turning into a notch/crank does not take much effort at all. Flanker MER at the high altitudes and speeds is not particularly bad.
Why i said this anyway is because you want to remove the R-27ER from it, in an environment where it is already badly outclassed by FOX-3.

@Panter2005

If it had it’s flight model improved, then it wouldn’t survive only because of missiles, would it.

Toptier meta is missile combat, not BFM dueling. Giving Su-27S a better sustained turn rate wouldnt help too much in terms of normal A2A combat.

@Panter2005

you trade an op bvr missile for a balanced and still very competitive bvr missile

It isnt overpowered, clearly you dont know how to defeat a FOX-1.

@Panter2005

R73 while still being a very strong missile and a serious addition for the mig 29, wouldn’t make the mig 29 op.

Youre half right. If it goes to 12.3 it will be ass. If it stays 12.0 it will be nuts.

@Panter2005

R27 er is “quite bad” against fox 3s? No way, it’s not like any fox 1 missile is dogshit against fox 3s. The fact that you say it’s “quite bad” only proves how strong it really is, if it can in your opinion somewhat keep up with fox 3s, but it’s quite bad compared to them.

The person with the AMRAAM always holds the advantage. He can go defensive while his missile guides in. Your missile is defeated but his is still on the way. You lose the fight, even with R-27ER.

[Panter2005]

@CommunistBalls

No, not exactly. Climbing was still viable, even if you had sparrows.

You could win at high altitude and long range with sparrows, if you cranked enough. It works only when the enemy flies straight at you and does nothing. At medium ranges/altitudes r27 er is just too fast.

@CommunistBalls

Why i said this anyway is because you want to remove the R-27ER from it, in an environment where it is already badly outclassed by FOX-3.

Planes that carry r77s can keep them as a side grade. Every fox 1 missile is badly outclassed by fox 3s, it doesn’t change the fact that also every fox 1 missile is badly outclassed by r27 er. If decompression happens, r27 er will dominate again.

@CommunistBalls

Toptier meta is missile combat, not BFM dueling. Giving Su-27S a better sustained turn rate wouldnt help too much in terms of normal A2A combat.

F4f ice is 12.7 for a reason.

From a bvr fight both players can come out alive, simply because at such long range you get plenty of time to abort. When people learn bvr, it will happen a lot more often. That rarely happens with dogfights, someone will die.

That’s why dogfights will always be there. If you want to make sure you kill the enemy, you will push for a dogfight. I’m mainly talking about sim, as air rb is oversaturated with players, but even in air rb you get furballs, not exactly 1v1 dogfights, but still. In furballs ir missiles are better and flight model matters.

@CommunistBalls

The person with the AMRAAM always holds the advantage. He can go defensive while his missile guides in. Your missile is defeated but his is still on the way. You lose the fight, even with R-27ER.

No way, that’s the whole point of fox 3s. You will never kill a fox 3 carrier with your fox 1 and survive.

I bet though that with r27 er you could pull it off. R27 er has inertial guidance and data link, you could break the lock to notch and lock your target again, not to mention that mig 29smt doesn’t even have to break the lock, since it has a radar with 90 degrees gimble limits. It’s also so fast that the enemy probably wouldn’t have enough time to guide his fox 3 into pitbull range before r27 er gets to him, he goes for a notch, while you just get out of the way of inertial guidance while keeping a lock and launching another one. You can even gain ground fighting against fox 3s with r27 er. It’s so good, that theoretically you can fight fox 3s with it, which only further proves it has no business going up against an aim 7m.

@CommunistBalls

Youre half right. If it goes to 12.3 it will be ass. If it stays 12.0 it will be nuts.

Sooner or later current top tier will be moved up to 13.3 or 13.7, then it will be perfect at 12.3.

[DocUSMC]

@CommunistBalls

R-27ER is not and never was overpowered.

It is over powered. the R27-ER could only be fired wings level. Its acceleration is also way too high.

Also the Mig-29 should only be carrying 2 R27s or 2 77s. But not 6.

[AlvisWisla]

Oh hey, Stolen Valor returns.
R-27ER has never been overpowered.
AIM-7F, its equivalent, is at 0.7 BR lower.

Mig-29s can only carry 2 R-27s.
Mig-29s can and do carry 6 R-77s though; claiming otherwise is claiming F-16 can only carry 2 AIM-120s…